Is UK polyb pipe the same as the stuff CONDEMNED in the US?

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not where it becomes inaccessable

What do you recommend for UFH , cold mains supplies to properties and farm/livestock supply distribution networks etc etc?

Copper? :rolleyes:

Use a bit of common, main distribtion is mdpe, post was made in plumbing and heating not farmers weekly. UHF you dont have much choice at present :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
 
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Note that this Class Action dates from 2003. And Dupont etc. did NOT admit liability back then.

Anyone get more recent info on this case and any others, anywhere, affecting PB, PEX or multilayer pipe?
 
Note that this Class Action dates from 2003. And Dupont etc. did NOT admit liability back then.

No, they didn't, but they did withdraw PB from the US market and paid several hundered million $ into a compensation scheme. The compensation scheme has probably now lapsed due to the time since the PB piping systems being withdrawn.

I believe the concentration of chlorine used in the US may be higher, i.e., swimming pool scented water.
 
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gasbanni wrote
not where it becomes inaccessable. Where its inaccessable use copper

There's no such thing as pipework being inaccessable.
But when you need access or have to comply with regs , the best option is plastic pipe in a duct which can be easily retracted if the need arises.
Try doing that with copper.
Copper fails as does plastic so if you want to use some "common" try recognising that simple fact.
 
I've had more than that over the top of pipes and had to access them to find a leak. And it was copper. :(
 
I've had more than that over the top of pipes and had to access them to find a leak. And it was copper. :(

Well it would have been wouldn't it :rolleyes:

Inaccessable bit of common again :rolleyes: ie not readily accessable ...
without causing damage :rolleyes:
 
gasbanni wrote
not where it becomes inaccessable. Where its inaccessable use copper


Copper fails as does plastic so if you want to use some "common" try recognising that simple fact.

Where did I say copper doesnt fail ? As for longevity if you wish to believe copper is inferior to plastic thats your perogative. The fact there is original roof from the 13th century still intact http://www.copperinfo.co.uk/arch/history.shtml is good enough for me.

I can take you to an estate in Ripon piped up in plastic that no one will cover especially BG, yeah yeah yeah we know non barrier.... how long before all the uf starts failing because xyz with the plastic wasn't thought of......do me a favour
 
The problem was with polybutylene pipe with acetal insert fittings.

http://www.spencerclass.com/index2.htm

I haven't seen such systems in the UK and I thought the problem was with the fittings.

Polybutylene plastic pipe, had catastrophic failures in the USA

http://www.polybutylene.com/poly.html

From site.....

Polybutylene is a form of plastic resin that was used extensively in the manufacture of water supply piping from 1978 until 1995. Due to the low cost of the material and ease of installation, polybutylene piping systems were viewed as "the pipe of the future" and were used as a substitute for traditional copper piping. It is most commonly found in the "Sun Belt" where residential construction was heavy through the 1980's and early-to-mid 90's, but it is also very common in the Mid Atlantic and Northwest Pacific states.

These are typically gray or white in color with a dull finish. Most are shown with pipe attached. Figure (4) is a new fitting.

The piping systems were used for underground water mains and as interior water distribution piping. Industry experts believe it was installed in at least 6 million homes, and some experts indicate it may have been used in as many as 10 million homes. Most probably, the piping was installed in about one in every four or five homes built during the years in which the pipe was manufactured.

How to Tell If You Have Poly

Exterior - Polybutylene underground water mains are usually blue, but may be gray or black (do not confuse black poly with polyethelene pipe). It is usually 1/2" or 1" in diameter, and it may be found entering your home through the basement wall or floor, concrete slab or coming up through your crawlspace; frequently it enters the home near the water heater. Your main shutoff valve is attached to the end of the water main. Also, you should check at the water meter that is located at the street, near the city water main. It is wise to check at both ends of the pipe because we have found cases where copper pipe enters the home, and poly pipe is at the water meter. Obviously, both pipes were used and connected somewhere underground.

Interior - Polybutylene used inside your home can be found near the water heater, running across the ceiling in unfinished basements, and coming out of the walls to feed sinks and toilets. Warning: In some regions of the country plumbers used copper "stub outs" where the pipe exits a wall to feed a fixture, so seeing copper here does not mean that you do not have poly.

See the photos below of polybutylene pipes and fittings.

Will the Pipes Fail?

While scientific evidence is scarce, it is believed that oxidants in the public water supplies, such as chlorine, react with the polybutylene piping and acetal fittings causing them to scale and flake and become brittle. Micro-fractures result, and the basic structural integrity of the system is reduced. Thus, the system becomes weak and may fail without warning causing damage to the building structure and personal property. It is believed that other factors may also contribute to the failure of polybutylene systems, such as improper installation, but it is virtually impossible to detect installation problems throughout an entire system.

Throughout the 1980's lawsuits were filed complaining of allegedly defective manufacturing and defective installation causing hundreds of millions of dollars in damages. Although the manufacturers have never admitted that poly is defective, they have agreed to fund the Class Action settlement with an initial and minimum amount of $950 million. You'll have to contact the appropriate settlement claim company to find out if you qualify under this settlement.

"A series of reports have suggested that increased use of choloramines accelerates corrosion and degradation of some metals and elastomers common to distribution plumbing and appurtenances.
With regard to elastomers, the study showed that with few exceptions, solutions of chloramines (either monochloramine or dichloramine) produced greater material swelling, deeper and more dense surface cracking, a more rapid loss of elasticity, and greater loss of tensile strength than equivalent concentrations of free chlorine."


----Steven Reiber, HDR Engineering, American Water Works Association Research Foundation
 
Polybutylene was condemned in the states because it flakes, leakes and splits.

Is our UK stuff the same as what has been condemned in the US?

Am I taking a risk using it? Anyone have any postive or negative stories?

Polybutylene was withdrawn from the US market because of adverse publicity. There was a big class action law suit. So far as I know, the problem was with defective joints and not with the PB pipe itself.

Plastic plumbing is either PEX or PB. I've used both and would use both again. ISTR that the PB can't be used for HWS circulation systems with chlorinated water; see installation instructions.

can the OP cite a reference for this flaking accusation? seems to me it is more likely the joints also. especially as the things keep getting redesigned
 
Check out the video in the upper right hand of http://www.sagewater.com/polybutylene.php

As you can see the plastic on the interior of the PB pipe has flaked off and is collecting at a fitting. Interesting to note that both the interior of the pipe and fitting has changed color from gray to a milky white, a clear indication that the plastic is oxidizing. I'd assume that some oxidation is normal, but not to the extent that it flakes away as shown by the video.
 
OK, so this is not necessarily relevant to the original question.

Copper is also a natural Antiseptic material, you would find that in Hospital/carehomes/clinics etc, it may well be the only material specified for carrying water used for drinking/treatments.

'plastic' pipe can, repeat, CAN harbour 'biofilm'. Not so good in such installations.

Horses for courses. Who would think that a robotised production line, and an advertised A1 quality control system could leave fittings without the necessary 'o' rings in them? It happened, and I only found out the hard way.

Its pug-ugly, has a place in plumbing, but, coppers proper.

DH

Oh, and it'll be an earner for us for decades to come to rip out and replace!
 

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