Kitchen speaker system

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We're having the kitchen extended soon and our attention has turned to entertainment (its going to be a big kitchen diner, a social space). I like the idea of a built in system with 2 or 4 ceiling speakers, ideally stereo.

I dont mind paying bose prices if the price is worth it. Theres loads of cheap kits on ebay, amazon etc but I'm guessing the quality is gash. If it could also switch to a pair of external speakers too (future expansion), or do both at once.

Then there's the source. Bluetooth would be nice, maybe a neat wall mount accessory plate for control, though we have a pantry we can keep an amp in if ness. We're also having a telly in there so if it can take an input from that too . . .

I saw the exact thing i want at a leisure centre event room last year. Wall mounted control (on a double backbox) that had several inputs on it and several buttons for vol etc and a small display, though i think it lacked bluetooth. Someone plugged a phone into it for a kids party. There was probably an amp somewhere.
 
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ceiling speakers are pricey if you 1 need building control and 2 want them to sound reasonable. Bose don't make good speakers. They make ok systems but there are better units. Wall mount speakers will sound lots better, particularly in stereo. What is the budget and how do you plan to drive them ?
 
I have a business selling and installing all manner of AV gear from high-end audiophile stereo to dedicated home cinema room builds and all the way down to the sort of commercial meeting room/classroom audio systems you've seen at the leisure centre. This isn't a pitch, I'm too busy with work already, I'm just saying that if you want quality audio then you don't want the leisure centre type system. The amp for that sort of thing is built in to the 2G back box and as a result it doesn't pack much of a punch. It's a small T amp - a sort of digital amp, physically very small and very efficient but ultimately limited in power output before it starts to distort. The power figures often quoted include the amp running with very high distortion.

Bluetooth for audio is fine as long as you accept that the sound quality takes a bit of a hit due to the compression required. That becomes a limiting factor. If you're streaming talk radio (mono, low quality, hi-compression source) or you simply select tracks from YouTube then you won't hear the difference. Similarly if you're playing audio to a room full of screaming kids then you're not going to hear the difference their either. But if you like your music and have Spotify or some other premium music service then porting it through a Bluetooth connection will definitely hit the quality. A Wi-Fi connection from your phone to the audio system is a better option. Both formats is the best solution. At least you have the choice then, but if you're at home and connected to the house Wi-Fi anyway then why worry about Bluetooth? Save that for the car or for use with some small portable speaker where audio fidelity is lower on the list of priorities.

You're correct about the quality of the Ebay and Amazon speaker kits. Given half a chance, decent in-ceiling speakers will sound as good or better than most people have ever heard Hi-Fi. The budget speakers sound about on par with a £50 shelf system. The rub is that getting Hi-Fi quality costs money, the same as with conventional Hi-Fi. There are no short-cuts. Decent standmount Hi-Fi speakers cost anything upwards of £200, and things start to get seriously good when going north of £300-£400 a pair. In-ceiling speakers start to get seriously good at £300-£400 a pair too. There is a difference in the way the speakers work though, and that means there's an extra cost with in-ceilings that needs to be factored in.

This difference is there's no cabinet with an in-ceiling speaker, so it's using the ceiling void as the back box. This has an affect on acoustics and it means that sound leaks in to the room above. There's also a safety element to consider. Plasterboard is designed to inhibit the spread of fire. This gives your loved ones time to flee in the even of a fire. That's kind of important. When you start cutting holes in it then that changes things. Good ceiling speakers are made from materials that will withstand some exposure to heat and flame, but they will give out. A decent firehood will give you about 30 minutes escape time, the same as a single skin of 9mm plasterboard. A good firehood will give you 50 minutes plus cut down on some of the noise leakage and help even up the bass performance of your speakers so that the ceiling void space is less of a factor. Cheap firehoods (only the 30 mins) are £30 each. The acoustic firehoods are £60 each.

As for the electronics, if you want simplicity then Sonos Connect Amps are great. With the right speakers you can run two stereo pairs from a single amp. Add the wiring to outside for the outdoor speakers during the refurb/extension work. Leave space in the pantry to add a second Connect Amp.

Each Sonos Connect Amp has a line input so you can have the TV connected as a source. If you have more than one Sonos device then each one can access the line input of the first device very much like it was connected to all Sonos devices. They can also stream content direct from your smartphone or tablet, as well as streaming music from your home network (PCs and NAS drives) and online libraries too. Your smartphone or tablet becomes the system remote. This works for iOS and Android devices. With multiple Sonos devices it's possible to operate them singly or group them together so that the same source plays in all (or some only) areas.
 
Wow thanks for your detailed explanation.

I have found some decent looking yamaha ceiling speakers on amazon at £99/pair with good reviews. I intend to build plasterboard boxes in the ceiling above the speakers, to enhance the sound and direct it more downwards, since there is a bedroom above. I will also chuck in a load of insulation around said box. Fire rating doesn't really matter - i understand fire rating only becomes an issue with integral garages and 3 storey homes. Neither apply here.

I stopped downloading music a couple years ago, now i use amazon prime "free" music and youtube. Though i have a few days (maybe more) worth of music from itunes on my pc.

The sonos looks the ideal solution but the cost is high. I was scouring amazon last night for alternatives but there is nothing in the mid range price bracket that quite does the same things.

An option would be to abandon the wifi/bluetooth idea and have a couple of line in jacks wall mounted on the kitchen island and behind the telly.

Nothing is going to happen for a good while yet, we havent even instructed an architect yet. I'm just getting ideas.
 
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Wow thanks for your detailed explanation.
You're welcome. You might like to use the THANKS button on any and all posts you find useful. It's free to use and it helps mark good info for those who might stumble across this site during a Google search :)

I have found some decent looking yamaha ceiling speakers on amazon at £99/pair with good reviews. I intend to build plasterboard boxes in the ceiling above the speakers, to enhance the sound and direct it more downwards, since there is a bedroom above. I will also chuck in a load of insulation around said box. Fire rating doesn't really matter - i understand fire rating only becomes an issue with integral garages and 3 storey homes. Neither apply here.
The in-ceiling boxing in isn't a bad idea.

Those Yamaha speakers have a 4" bass driver. In the trade we would only use something with a bass driver that small in non-essential areas e.g. utility rooms, corridors, pool/gym changing room. We wouldn't use them in the main listening spaces such as kitchens / dining rooms / lounges / bedrooms etc without adding a sub-woofer of some description to fill in the missing midrange and bass. TBH, there's more reasons than that why we wouldn't use speakers that small: the cost saving versus 6.5" or 8" speakers is eaten up by the cost of the sub and the extra cost for buying bigger amps because these smaller speakers are far more power hungry. Those Yamaha NS-IC400's are nicely made but not right for what you intend unless you do plan to run them with a proper multi-channel amp (c. £1500) and an in-wall or free-standing sub.

The reviews are a bit mixed up too, I see. Some are for the 4" 400's, others for the 6" 600's and at least one for the 8" 800's. I'd also take customer reviews with a pinch of salt. You rarely know if the person is writing from a position of authority having installed lots of similar product, or if they're just a eager Joe who is blown away by simply by the fact they've got sound in the ceiling.

If you're going to do some research and look at various products then here's what to look for:

* Bass driver size - 6.5" or 8" - this means you don't need a sub to get decent bass, particularly at lower volumes

* Sensitivity of 88dB or more. - this is a measure of how good the speaker is at turning electrical power in to sound

* Materials - polypropylene is your minimum basic bass cone material for something half decent. Paper is cheaper and not really suitable for speakers exposed to moisture e.g. steam from cooking (remember, heat rises; and it takes moisture with it). More exotic materials exist for lightness and strength: Plain- and ceramic-coated metals, glass fibre, Kevlar etc. Tweeters - Mylar (a metal covered plastic) is the bog standard basic material. Look for something better if possible: silk dome (a soft fabric dome), aluminium, titanium, beryllium (3 different metals commonly in use)... NOTE: just because a speaker uses a metal- or silk dome tweeter doesn't make it automatically better; the material and the resulting tweeter have to be engineered properly in the first place. A cheap speaker using fancy materials might be out-performed by something from a more reputable brand using basic materials but with better engineering. Weight is a useful indicator of quality. Bigger heavier magnets cost more money but help to improve efficiency and sound output.

* Features - some speakers have controls that allow the bass and the treble response to be tweaked up or down to suit the room. You might also find the ability to change the speaker impedance (useful if you plan to run two pairs off one stereo amp output), and pivoting tweeters which allows angling of the sound.

* General design - if the back of the speaker you're looking at has just a couple of wires attached to a pair of spade terminals and no sign of a circuit that is a crossover (it splits the incoming signal between the bass and treble and handles the blending of the two) then walk away. A speaker with a 6-6.5" bass cone should be able to get down to 45-50Hz. That's about on par with £200+ bookshelf speakers.

None of the above individually is a guarantee of quality or performance. It's possible to have a speaker with high efficiency, some exotic materials and a pivoting tweeter that still sounds lousy because the frequency response is lumpy as hell. A smooth frequency response comes from good engineering and R&D that involves computer modelling and real world product testing in an anechoic chamber where the speaker's response can be measured free from any contribution of a room.


I stopped downloading music a couple years ago, now i use amazon prime "free" music and youtube. Though i have a few days (maybe more) worth of music from itunes on my pc.

The sonos looks the ideal solution but the cost is high. I was scouring amazon last night for alternatives but there is nothing in the mid range price bracket that quite does the same things.
If Youtube sets your quality benchmark then why not abandon the idea of in-ceilings all together and just get some of the Sonos Play speakers. You'll save yourself a tonne of hassle and a pile of cash too. Play 3's is where I'd head, and I'd add a Sonos Connect to the TV.

I'd say Sonos is in the midrange solutions. It's not top end by any means. You're right though, nothing works as well as it. They've got the operation and feature set absolutely nailed. I have other products in my range that cost a hell of a lot more but aren't nearly half as user friendly as Sonos. Other companies have had a go at beating Sonos. The cheaper ones always had to make compromise. The dearer product did sound better, but the price increase was disproportionate to improvement in sound quality. Sonos is actually cheap for what it does...... provided that you want what it does.
 
I too am looking at ceiling speakers for my kitchen extension that is only just getting out of the ground.

I stumbled across these Lithe audio all in one amp/Bluetooth/ speakers. It costs £199 for the master and you can add a second slave speaker as a package costing total of £270. You can only have the 2 speakers.

Not sure how they sound and there's not many reviews as they're quite new, they look promising though.

http://www.litheaudio.com/products/litheaudio-bluetooth-ceiling-speaker
 
Well one thing they don't seem to know is that fused spurs are not used or required on lighting circuits. Wonder what else they don't know!
 

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