Loftbox question

[RonnyRaygun]

Years ago when I bought and completely refurbished my house I installed a Triax loftbox system so that I could send TV all around the house. Everything worked fine, but a year or so ago one of the cables broke (I think the return feed) that was running from my Youview box.
I have been extremely tardy over the last year or so and have never got round to replacing the cable.
However, with the purchase of a Smart TV I would like to get things working again. Problem is, I've forgotten how to return the feed! I've got a pattress on the wall with Sat 1, Sat 2, TV, and Radio. I've got the signal coming in from the TV coaxial socket and the TV is working fine.
I need to know how to create the return loop as there is only one coaxial socket on the back of the TV. Is it as simple as using a Y splitter? Secondly, which socket should the return feed connect into?

Your help will be greatly appreciated.

Cheers guys!

 

[Lucid]

Two questions....

(1) I take it you have an aerial somewhere at the top of the house, either in the loft or on the roof. Does the cable from that go to the loft box or does it come straight in to the lounge?

(2) A return feed is normally used so that the signal from a receiver (Sky in most cases) can be viewed on other TVs in the house; the idea being that recordings and channels not available via Freeview can be watched elsewhere in the house. TTBOMK, Youview boxes don't have this facility via the aerial connection output. So, the question is related to 1 above, but what are you hoping to achieve with the return feed?

 

[Sam Gangee]

The return feed is essential to connect the aerial signal back to the second (independent) section of the Loft Box, which is a distribution amplifier - even if there's no other signal.
See http://www.satcure.co.uk/tech/lofthelp.htm

 

[RonnyRaygun]

Yes, I have the aerial connected into the loft box. And yes, the return feed is required to redistribute the signal to the TV points in the other rooms.

Thinking about it now, I may not have had this working since getting the Youview box (it may have been a previous set top box that I was using), but there must be a way of returning the signal to the distribution amplifier section of the loft box, as without being able to do that, we are unable to watch TV in any of the other rooms.

At present I would be happy to use the Youview box to obtain the return feed (if possible) but once I get a USB hard drive for the smart TV I won't need the Youview box. There surely must be a way of doing this?

 

[Sam Gangee]

It's not clear tom me what your problem is. You are presumably feeding the Freeview signal to something. If that something has an RF output, connect it to the Return socket. If it hasn't an RF output then you'll have to split the signal and pass half to the something and half to the Return. If 50% of the signal is insufficient, add an amplifier.

 

[RonnyRaygun]

Thanks for replying Sam.

My new TV doesn't have an RF Out (unsurprisingly). Does this mean it's impossible to return the signal or is there some kind of splitter box I can install to effectively give me an RF out?

I've solved the other part of my question - I need to connect the return feed to SAT 2.

 

[RonnyRaygun]

Is this what I need?

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Triax-Link-Output-Sky-Box/dp/B00HY9E5LA

 

[Lucid]

Is this what I need?

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Triax-Link-Output-Sky-Box/dp/B00HY9E5LA

No, that's not for you.

Unless I'm missing something here then I see no need for the return feed at all. Here's why...

(1) The aerial is connected directly to the loft box. i.e. it's not like the return feed is bringing anything back up to the loft box that isn't already there!

(2) the down feed and the return feed is just basically a big loop of cable. Granted, the wall plate with its RF out FM/DAB out and the two SAT sockets sits in the middle of that loop, but it's still effectively a loop nonetheless when one of the SAT connections is used for the Return feed. So why send the signal on a (I'm guessing here...) a 20 mtr journey to pick up nothing extra when a short link of coax cable between the Downlink Output and the Uplink Input will do the same job? (see point 3)

(3) There hasn't been any mention of satellite, so is it safe to presume that your house runs from Freeview everywhere, or would do if the aerial signal got to each room? So the only issue remaining is how to change the wiring at the loft box to maintain an aerial signal for Freeview in the lounge while at the same time resolving the issue for the other rooms. Well, as long as there's at least one spare output on the loft box then that seems simple enough to achieve....

Do the following...

(i) Disconnect the down lead from the loft box that currently goes to the lounge. Move it to one of the loft box's 'other room' outputs. You'll still get Freeview once the rest of the connections are made

(ii) Make up a short link cable and connect the Downlink Output socket to the Uplink Input socket

You do not need a return feed from the lounge now. You need not buy any splitters. You do not need to change any wiring at the back of the lounge TV.

In the lounge with the quad plate you will have TV, and you will have FM/DAB (presuming you have those aerials connected to the loft box). Since there's no Satellite dish connected then nothing changes there. As I said at the beginning of this post, unless I'm missing something then this is all you need to do.

 

[Sam Gangee]

Lucid, you are "missing something".
As I stated, a Loft Box comprises two separate sections. The second section is a distribution amplifier that can feed UHF TV and VHF/DAB radio to "other rooms". It gets its radio aerial inputs direct but its UHF signal comes only via the "Return" feed.
See diagram at top of page:
http://www.satcure.co.uk/tech/lofthelp.htm

I do concede that looping the down-return ports will fix that and feeding the lounge from a "bedroom" feed will get Freeview there. But then you lose any possibility of controlling whatever's in the lounge from a bedroom, using a "magic eye" system via the Loft Box. You'd have to do it via a wireless system or a mobile phone. You've also lost an output. The whole thing gets messy when you don't wire it as intended. Also, if you move house and leave it wired like that, the next occupant with a Sky box has a nightmare scenario!

 

[Lucid]

Thanks Sam Gangee, whilst I understand that omitting the return feed loop to the lounge precludes any possibility of using Sky eyes, and it means that any other analogue RF out signal can't be piggy-backed on too, neither of those configurations are required in this case. Ronny Raygun doesn't appear to own or use Sky, and the TV recorder he does own has only a straight forward aerial feed loop in/out on the back which means it doesn't add it's own signal to the RF loop, so without some additional bits of gear and expenditure it's not like he can sit in bed watching recordings.

Yes, you're absolutely correct in that it's not strictly how a loft box is designed to be used; but then again the gear in the lounge isn't designed to take advantage of a loft box's features either. So, in the end does it really matter?

I also take your point about "What happens when the next house owner moves in?", and if Ronny Ray gun was on the cusp of moving out then that would perhaps be a valid consideration. I wonder though, did the owners before R.R. stop to consider all the possible permutations of how the next occupant might use the aerial system, or did they just leave it for them to sort out on their own?

In the normal course of events you and I as aerial installers are quite precious about avoiding unnecessary signal degradation because of what it does to Quality. It's easy to restore lost power (Strength, for the benefit of non-tech readers) with an amplifier, but power alone is useless. That's why TV Boosters that live at the back of a TV rarely have much positive effect; they're amplifying garbage: Strength 10 Quality 3 = bad signal. There's no bit of gear we can install to restore Quality. Once it's gone, it's gone.

The choice then to send the signal on a long journey via a return loop has to be balanced with the benefit of what it will pick up in the process. If this is how we pick up Sky's recorder signal so it can be watched elsewhere then fine, there's a trade-off in Quality to gain a convenience feature. But to send a signal on an estimated 20m round trip for nothing other than "this is how they should be wired" or "think of the next house owner" is IMO a much harder justification to make.

On balance, and also given that this is a specific set of circumstances, then my preference would be to retain the Quality so long as there are no other bits of information not yet revealed which could change things.

 

[Sam Gangee]

Well, Ronny, I suggest you try Lucid's wiring. If that does what you want, all's well for now. Just remember, for the future, that it's not wired "correctly". In fact I'd definitely make yourself a wiring diagram because, if your memory's like mine, you'll soon forget what you did and why!

 

[ironsidebod]

I've run the Labgear loft box for a number of years without a return feed and TV gets distributed to all other outlets fine. As I understand it, the return is just to feed an additional signal e.g. the old Sky box output from the lounge to other TVs not the actual Freeview signal itself.

Presumably the Triax gear is different?

Link to Loftbox: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Labgear-Philex-Distribution-Amplifier-Loft/dp/B001GHMSTW

 

[Sam Gangee]

As I understand it, the return is just to feed an additional signal e.g. the old Sky box output from the lounge to other TVs not the actual Freeview signal itself.

No, you understand incorrectly. See my posts, above. It's impossible to get a Freeview signal in bedrooms without the return feed.

 

[ironsidebod]

No misunderstanding. With the Labgear unit I used it absolutely does not need the return feed.

The TVs in the house do not get any signal until they are plugged into the wall socket (so no mega strong signal masking things). There are five sockets wired/tested/used and all are working fine without the return cable connected and no loop fitted at the box. All TVs have all channels on all muxes with no break up.

I get what you are saying as the implication is there in the Labgear instructions, so how is it working?

p.s I understand the digi link stuff won't work like this but I don't need it.

 

[Sam Gangee]

Presumably then your unknown model "Labgear" unit has an "RF loop" switch, for testing purposes, which you've closed. The Triax box doesn't have this.