Mr Bates and the post office

Divert.


Then swerve.

PEOPLE.
Read the link: Corporations are not people.

In 2019, the Post Office was lambasted by the High Court for its 'institutional obstinacy or refusal to consider' that its Horizon computer system might be flawed. The judge, Mr Justice Fraser, characterised this stance as "the 21st-century equivalent of maintaining that the earth is flat."

Why is it called the Post Office scandal?
Why is Paula Vennels being singled out after she carried on a policy established by her predecessors?
Who were they and are they being prosecuted?

Broaden your remit...and stop trying to pass the buck.
 
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Broaden your remit...and stop trying to pass the buck


I have said - repeatedly - go after PEOPLE.

I have not placed any limitation on who to go after.

You keep holding onto "the organisation" being held responsible, with PEOPLE being shielded by it.

I have been consistent throughout.
 
@Justin Passing
If we are talking broader than Fujitsu. There are lots of potential "misconducts", not all have criminal sanctions.
- Perverting the course of Justice - plea deals without merit
- Fraud - they demanded money they had no evidence was taken.
- Malicious Prosecution - the bar is very high for this - you have show that it's not simply negligence.
- Contempt of court - Misleading the court deliberately.
- Perjury - giving a false witness statement - needs to be more than simply wrong, needs to be proven lying. (e.g. emails says x, they say y in court).
- Litigation misconduct - victim can claim costs
Thanks. @motorbiking
In this case, the boss of the Post Office should have beeen sufficiently involved to realise, or at least question, that something was wrong. They, or someone given authority to look into it, got it wrong and many suffered. "Someone" should have verified that the Fujitsu program was sound. They obviously didn't. Perhaps they were not competent to test it. Giving the job to someone not competent would be the boss's fault.

Who commits the Tort? The boss? Who judges it? If a learned and respect inquiry holds that the top n people should have known/done better, who sets compensation/ penalty?
If there's no blatant evidence of criminal wrongdoing such as perjury, when can/does it become a criminal matter? Does that significantly affect the outcome?
I see that Misconduct In Public Office, though Common Law, carries a penalty of up to life imprisonment.

Who does the accusing of MIPO? Is this Public Office -?

A lot of questions I know, maybe already answered in the thread (sorry).
It's clear from watching Travel/holiday complaints or eg Grenfell, that many wrong things go unresolved, because there aren't acceptable mechanisms to deal with them. Grrr!
 
Read the link: Corporations are not people.

In 2019, the Post Office was lambasted by the High Court for its 'institutional obstinacy or refusal to consider' that its Horizon computer system might be flawed. The judge, Mr Justice Fraser, characterised this stance as "the 21st-century equivalent of maintaining that the earth is flat."

Why is it called the Post Office scandal?
Why is Paula Vennels being singled out after she carried on a policy established by her predecessors?
Who were they and are they being prosecuted?

Broaden your remit...and stop trying to pass the buck.
I think you are confusing the actions taken by PEOPLE leading to the commercial liability of the post office. The civil action was against the PO the company. Nobody is trying to "Pierce the corporate veil" yet and hold director personally accountable for damages. That does not mean the PEOPLE are not criminally or even civilly accountable for their actions. If individuals are found to have done wrong, the board will not stand by them otherwise the wrong doing falls on them. The individual only has a defence to his/her wrong doing if he can show he was under orders and where those order came from.
 
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Thanks. @motorbiking
In this case, the boss of the Post Office should have beeen sufficiently involved to realise, or at least question, that something was wrong. They, or someone given authority to look into it, got it wrong and many suffered. "Someone" should have verified that the Fujitsu program was sound. They obviously didn't. Perhaps they were not competent to test it. Giving the job to someone not competent would be the boss's fault.

Who commits the Tort? The boss? Who judges it? If a learned and respect inquiry holds that the top n people should have known/done better, who sets compensation/ penalty?
If there's no blatant evidence of criminal wrongdoing such as perjury, when can/does it become a criminal matter? Does that significantly affect the outcome?
I see that Misconduct In Public Office, though Common Law, carries a penalty of up to life imprisonment.

Who does the accusing of MIPO? Is this Public Office -?

A lot of questions I know, maybe already answered in the thread (sorry).
It's clear from watching Travel/holiday complaints or eg Grenfell, that many wrong things go unresolved, because there aren't acceptable mechanisms to deal with them. Grrr!
being cr@p and hiring a cr@p team is not a criminal offence. The PO is liable for the damages
compensation is based on the quantum (a value assigned) of damage or whatever they can get away with to get a settlement.
The Met police have stated they are pursuing criminal investigations against a number of people.
What do you mean by the outcome - how much they get? not really. The crimes are separate from the damages. But sometimes there is a punishment award in a civil case if one party took the p*** and acted unreasonably
Don't think there are any public officers involved for MiPO
 
And still it goes on . The judge today in the inquiry saying they are still not releasing the documents etc that are being asked for
 
And still it goes on . The judge today in the inquiry saying they are still not releasing the documents etc that are being asked for


Not the smartest thing to do.


So @motorbiking , what is to stop Sir Wyn Williams saying "You: PO CEO; give me the name of the person or persons who have custody of [the documents], or I will hold YOU liable for handing them over to the inquiry."

?
 
So @motorbiking , what is to stop Sir Wyn Williams saying "You: PO CEO; give me the name of the person or persons who have custody of [the documents], or I will hold YOU liable for handing them over to the inquiry."

?
There's about 70 million of them is the lame excuse being given. This from a company that found the resources to prosecute hundreds and defend indefensible litigation with the highest paid qc's. And do a plea bargain with ay least one SPM that she would not blame Horizson as part of the deal. PO seems afraid of Fukitsu.
 
I have not been following the case, but if its obvious that files requested are being witheld how long before the judge says get me those files in say 5 working days or you, you and you will face charges of contempt of court, that should shake them up!
 
So @motorbiking , what is to stop Sir Wyn Williams saying "You: PO CEO; give me the name of the person or persons who have custody of [the documents], or I will hold YOU liable for handing them over to the inquiry."

?
yep - its pretty broad. I dunno how many have ever been prosecuted though. Sir Wyn will know his power.
 
Having just binged this series I found it amazing.

The Post Office clearly think they did no wrong and what about Fujitsu’s part in this?

I don’t think we’ll ever know what actually happened and more importantly who knew what and when.

God only knows how the poor ex post office managers got through all the stress they have and probably still encounter in a daily basis. They deserve medals
 
I think you are confusing the actions taken by PEOPLE leading to the commercial liability of the post office. The civil action was against the PO the company. Nobody is trying to "Pierce the corporate veil" yet and hold director personally accountable for damages. That does not mean the PEOPLE are not criminally or even civilly accountable for their actions. If individuals are found to have done wrong, the board will not stand by them otherwise the wrong doing falls on them. The individual only has a defence to his/her wrong doing if he can show he was under orders and where those order came from.

I sought clarity on the legal position of people concerned with the cover-up and the company responsibility in the subsequent years of denying Alan Bates a fair hearing when the truth began to emerge about Horizon's role in all of this...

During the Obama years, the American left has regularly and forcefully claimed that "corporations are not people." Progressives ranging from ordinary protestors all the way up to President Obama have insisted that, because corporations are not living, breathing human beings, corporate personhood — the idea that corporations have certain legal and constitutional rights — is a fiction. As they would have it, corporate personhood was foisted upon the country by the radical conservatives of the Roberts Court and Republican officeholders with only one thing in mind: helping big business.

This is not to say that corporate rights operate in the same way as do the rights of natural persons. In many cases the law justifiably treats the rights of natural persons and artificial persons differently. It is to say, however, that respect for the rights of corporations, no less than respect for the rights of individuals, is advantageous for our social order and has been essential to America's development as a prosperous, free, and good society. Accordingly, America's perpetuation as such a society requires that we understand and defend corporate personhood and corporate rights against this criticism from the left.

The idea that corporations have legal rights, and therefore a kind of personhood, is not an invention of contemporary conservatives. Its roots stretch all the way back through the history of American law and deep into the English common-law tradition. That tradition was captured most comprehensively — and communicated to the American founders most forcefully — by William Blackstone's Commentaries on the Laws of England. The very table of contents of that work bears witness to the legal tradition of granting rights to corporate persons. Chapter 18, "Of Corporations," is placed in "Book the First: The Rights of Persons."

National Affairs.com

51xq50AQ7DL._SY445_SX342_.jpg


This is the first practical guide for every citizen on the problem of corporate personhood and the tools we have to overturn it. Jeff Clements explains why the Citizen's United case is the final win in a campaign for corporate domination of the state that began in the 1970s under Richard Nixon. More than this, Clements shows how unfettered corporate rights will impact public health, energy policy, the environment, and the justice system. Where Thom Hartmann's Unequal Protection provides a much-needed detailed legal history of corporate personhood, Corporations Are Not People answers the reader's question: "What does Citizens United mean to me?" And, even more important, it provides a solution: a Constitutional amendment, included in the book, which would reverse Citizens United. The book's ultimate goal is to give every citizen the tools and talking points to overturn corporate personhood state by state, community by community with petitions, house party kits, draft letters, shareholder resolutions, and much more.

Since the Post Office was changed from a statutory corporation to a public company, Royal Mail Group, in 2001, Post Office Counters Limited became Post Office Limited. After Richard Sweetman stepped down in 2001 and David Mills was appointed as Chief Executive of Post Office Limited, a newly created role, then in 2006 Alan Cook, was appointed with the title Managing Director. In 2010, David Smith took over the role of Managing Director before Paula Vennells took the poisoned chalice and drank deep in the conspiracy bequeathed by her predecessors.

All of them bear responsibility for the Post Office's denial during the first decade before PV took the job on, yet she is the one facing the music while the others have slipped away unnoticed by the media spotlight.

"If individuals are found to have done wrong, the board will not stand by them otherwise the wrong doing falls on them. The individual only has a defence to his/her wrong doing if he can show he was under orders and where those order came from."

If, however, the cover-up began from the very top of the corporate hierarchy then the company itself has to shoulder the responsibility for this terrible injustice. The buck stops there, right?
 
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