New boiler - what to ask the plumber?

[drives]

I think this is a great feature and massively undersold

I never realised how much more comfortable the house would be with weather comp.

most of the winter these days is not too cold say between 5 and 10 deg and I find our flow temp is only typically around 35 to 45 deg, I now have the heating on for 2 long periods of the day and mostly have all rads on -dont bother with fancy TRV zoning etc.

Indeed. Our system does the same, and ticks along at between 35 to 45. 47 on very the coldest days.

No zoning. As you say, zoning another thing that in most domestic properties is all a bit pointless. Just keep whole house same consistent temp is probably best.

Heating engineers should really be doing some heat loss calcs as standard, size accordingly, and spend a bit of time properly commissioning with decent controls and setting a WC curve. All too much effort I guess.

 

[richw]

That was what they used to be - more modern ones, are more powerful, you set the temperature you want, and they maintain that temperature precisely, winter and summer. They do that by adjusting the power input, and the flow of water.

Well, yes, so instead of the water being cold(er), it will reduce from a bad flow to an appallingly bad flow. Not actually a useful difference. Same limitation of the uselessness of an electric heating element being used on-demand.

A proper shower needs hot water and a good flow.

Turning the hot tap on, the cold water incoming mains flow, is shared between both the hot and the cold taps.

Yes, I know this. So it's as much a limitation of your mains flow & pressure as it is the boiler (e.g. 24 kW combi will be terrible). But I don't recall the OP mentioning the figures, so want to point out the consequences.

Boiler installers, tend to recommend, the boiler company which offers them the best deal/best profit margin. They will not want, or even refuse to install, your choice of boiler. Start by deciding which boiler you decide you want, then find installers of that boiler - manufacturers have lists, of approved installers.

Well, I've had four different boiler brands in my own houses over the years. And probably four different people work on them, I rated the people one is an absolute legend, two mid, and one terrible. So I choose the fitter first. There's only one person I want doing the plumbing in my house, and he offered me a choice of three that he typically works with. He would have installed anything, but I remember him not being able to get through to Intergas.

So it's just a bit of pragmatism. Choose something the installer works with regularly they will have parts, know the manufacturer, know the tricks etc. I've just done similar with a kitchen: chose the fitter, then asked what he liked to work with in terms of product/supplier.

The manufacturers list could be a good idea, but it could also be a list of people who attended their one-day course.

I'm not bothered about a loyalty/margin programme for the installer. The difference to the whole job will be insignificant.

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

Well, yes, so instead of the water being cold(er), it will reduce from a bad flow to an appallingly bad flow. Not actually a useful difference. Same limitation of the uselessness of an electric heating element being used on-demand.

on
A world away, from the old low power electric shower, the flow temperature of which would need constant adjustment, as the pressure, and water temperature varied, which it seems you bad opinion was based up.

A proper shower needs hot water and a good flow.

For the simple, basic process, of getting refreshed and clean - no it doesn't. Large quantities of water are simply not necessary.

 

[nic11]

on
A world away, from the old low power electric shower, the flow temperature of which would need constant adjustment, as the pressure, and water temperature varied, which it seems you bad opinion was based up.



For the simple, basic process, of getting refreshed and clean - no it doesn't. Large quantities of water are simply not necessary.

We had our son stay with us through covid due to a break up and I forget the number of times I berated him as he used to turn the shower on, go get ready for five mins or so before getting a shower as he was used to a shower that was fed from a HWT. A couple of the plumbers did ask if we wanted a shower supplied from the hot water in considering what our usage currently was, what our ideal usage would be before then looking at what options would be best.

Maybe some of you love spending hours under a shower, but I just get a quick shower in the morning. I wonder how many are basing their experience on having a large house with 4+ bedrooms, maybe 2 bathrooms, en-suites, etc.

2 bed semi, six radiators (bathroom, bedrooms, hallway, lounge and kitchen). So not a great demand. 95% of my hot water use/demand is the kitchen sink, given that's currently gravity fed (cold water tank is at most 7m above), I don't believe I need a high capacity (2 recommended 24KW, the big firm sales guy recommended 30KW, still to hear back from the other 2)

Why are the plumbers suggesting 24KW if it's so terrible. Current thinking is going for the Ideal Vogue (26kw) as the price differential is a few hundred, the stainless steel heat exchange appeals and the fact it's display gives a lot more information and it's compatible with a weather compensation kit.

Quotes are coming in cheaper than my initial expectations, so really is going to come down to which installer I prefer. Maybe I need to factor in which would be better also for servicing in the future.

 

[ETAF]

we had a valiant combi 30kw installed last year - replaced a valiant CH only
works really well
we have a bungalow
9 rads & 2 towel rails - shower over bath

because of the way the hotwater was run from a tank in loft , it takes quite a while now to get the kitchen tap and bath shower warm - as the pipework goes from one end of the bungalow boiler - up one side of loft to where the tank used to be 15mm and then back the other side of loft 22mm to kitchen , so pretty much now travels 2x length of bungalow

in fact on Monday our plumber is coming in to service the boiler and he did some work last week to the sink in utility room work, and connect a rad up in utility room i installed - and I have asked him to quote to add a pipe from above the boiler to the kitchen , and if it will speed things up

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

Maybe some of you love spending hours under a shower, but I just get a quick shower in the morning. I wonder how many are basing their experience on having a large house with 4+ bedrooms, maybe 2 bathrooms, en-suites, etc.

Not sure quite what you are asking, but I get ready, press the button to turn our electric shower on, wait a few seconds for it to stabilise it's water flow, and temperature, then jump in most mornings for a quick, head to toe, wake me up, shower. The talk of modern electric showers, not being adequate to the job, is total nonsense. Yes, of course 30Kw of combi shower produces more hot water, but is that amount really necessary, to get washed?

 

[nic11]

Not sure quite what you are asking, but I get ready, press the button to turn our electric shower on, wait a few seconds for it to stabilise it's water flow, and temperature, then jump in most mornings for a quick, head to toe, wake me up, shower. The talk of modern electric showers, not being adequate to the job, is total nonsense. Yes, of course 30Kw of combi shower produces more hot water, but is that amount really necessary, to get washed?

Sorry, was more aimed at those shocked that I have an electric shower.

 

[richw]

I think it's one of those things you get used to, so any change (combi, electric or tank) seems like another universe.

Combis are great if your mains is up to it, and your usage doesn't demand two points in use at once (e.g. two showers on at the same time in the morning).

An electric shower, I still maintain, won't heat up very much water. Try using one in December or January: you have to accept terrible flow or cold water. It doesn't really matter if the shower reduces the flow to maintain the temperature, or reduces the temperature to maintain the flow... both are bad. The limits are much higher with even a 24 kW combi, and higher again with a storage tank setup.

Anyway, most important take away should be to measure your incoming mains. Do that first. Then think about your hot water requirements: do you want showers? More than one at once? Do you like baths?

 

[ETAF]

and I have asked him to quote to add a pipe from above the boiler to the kitchen

well, turns out the pipe is already going across to the kitchen , e connected up when installing the boiler !!!!!!!!!

Still takes ages to come through