New DHW system in Portugal

[Arenquerojo]

We are just starting to renovate an old apartment in North Portugal (Caminha area). Two people. 1 shower room. I bedroom. 1 lobby/study. All else open plan. Currently has elderly multipoint which does enogh for kitchen tap but not shower. No other heating of any kind.
We want to install a good multipoint able to keep the shower going at 12 litres per min. at 38 degrees C. But we also want to install a wood burning stove with back boiler to run 2 radiators (bedroom & study) and a towel rail in the shower room.
We are thinking min of 12Kw water from the wood stove.
It seems a pity not to use the stove to assist with the hot water.
Can we run hot water into a multipoint?

Thanks for any help/suggestions - especially about best multipoint to use if any.

Patrick

 

[Agile]

I think that you will need to think or learn a lot more about what you want to do.

Perhaps a good local installer may be able to explain it all to you?

To get 12 kW out of a woodburner you will need a lot of wood and stoking!

Tony

 

[Arenquerojo]

Thanks for the fast response, Tony.
We have been told by a stove retailer that we should have 12Kw for the water and 8Kw for the room. The smallest wood burner with boiler that we have seen so far is 29Kw. The neighbour is putting the same one in his house and reckons it will need about 3 Kg of wood for an evening...
I have seen another stove at a friend's in Greece. I don't know the Kw of his stove but he gets the dinner cooked in the oven, four radiators for the evening and two showers - all out of one log of wood weighing about 1.5 Kg.
It is all new to me - hence the plea for help!

Patrick

 

[Richardthe3rd]

I guess it's down to fuel supply. Is your area of Portugal got large wooded areas or forests? Or perhaps you want to recycle paper making brickets??
I can only imagine it'll get quite cold in the Winter months so a large supply of fuel would be required??

Also, I guess any LPG is not cheap either??

 

[Agile]

Thanks for the fast response, Tony.
We have been told by a stove retailer that we should have 12Kw for the water and 8Kw for the room. The smallest wood burner with boiler that we have seen so far is 29Kw. The neighbour is putting the same one in his house and reckons it will need about 3 Kg of wood for an evening...
I have seen another stove at a friend's in Greece. I don't know the Kw of his stove but he gets the dinner cooked in the oven, four radiators for the evening and two showers - all out of one log of wood weighing about 1.5 Kg.
It is all new to me - hence the plea for help!

Patrick

You seem to have different wood there.

At my friend in France the stove gives about 4 kW to radiators and about 3 kW to the room.

That burns about three thick logs an hour, each perhaps 2 kg ! So keeping the fire going for an evening takes many logs and about 30 minutes work with a chain saw cutting them during the day.

Tony

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• Agile
• 17 Apr 2013
• 3

 

[Arenquerojo]

I think we probably have very different wood stock here...
This part of Portugal is probably the most densely forested part of Europe and much of it is Oak - and that is what people burn by choice but only after two years drying!
One local tells me that I must buy a cast stove "because the steel ones burn twice as much wood" and another says it doesn't matter what stove you buy or what power it is because all will heat your 3 radiators, warm you 100m3 room and provide two showers from a few logs...
Mind you, the last guy told me that it was something I don't have a clue about and he did a design on an envelope then and there. No figures at all! So I am no wiser yet...

Patrick

 

[Richardthe3rd]

I'd of thought a gasification stove would be best. Oak should be a good hardwood to burn if it's well seasoned. What about one of these bad boys;
http://www.stovesonline.co.uk/wood_burning_stoves/Walltherm-Stoves.html

 

[Richardthe3rd]

Thanks for the fast response, Tony.
We have been told by a stove retailer that we should have 12Kw for the water and 8Kw for the room. The smallest wood burner with boiler that we have seen so far is 29Kw. The neighbour is putting the same one in his house and reckons it will need about 3 Kg of wood for an evening...
I have seen another stove at a friend's in Greece. I don't know the Kw of his stove but he gets the dinner cooked in the oven, four radiators for the evening and two showers - all out of one log of wood weighing about 1.5 Kg.
It is all new to me - hence the plea for help!

Patrick

You seem to have different wood there.

At my friend in France the stove gives about 4 kW to radiators and about 3 kW to the room.

That burns about three thick logs an hour, each perhaps 2 kg ! So keeping the fire going for an evening takes many logs and about 30 minutes work with a chain saw cutting them during the day.

Tony

Untitled

• Agile
• 17 Apr 2013
• 3

Ah, I didn't know you were a close friend of Fred Dibnah Tony!!

 

[Arenquerojo]

I'd of thought a gasification stove would be best. Oak should be a good hardwood to burn if it's well seasoned. What about one of these bad boys;l

OK that sent me rushing to Wikipedia... But then I looked at Stovesonline (who were the company theat gave me the 12Kw and 8Kw figures) and saw the prices! They are way outside my budget and I couldn't see that I would reach payback in my lifetime. Nice thought, though.

Patrick

 

[Richardthe3rd]

I'd of thought a gasification stove would be best. Oak should be a good hardwood to burn if it's well seasoned. What about one of these bad boys;l

OK that sent me rushing to Wikipedia... But then I looked at Stovesonline (who were the company theat gave me the 12Kw and 8Kw figures) and saw the prices! They are way outside my budget and I couldn't see that I would reach payback in my lifetime. Nice thought, though.

Patrick

Yes, they're very, very expensive. I've not looked for others, but will have another look. In some respects we Brits have a good history of bog standard wood burning appliances & multi-fuel stoves, these for example are exceptional build quality;
http://www.woodwarmstoves.co.uk

Just out of interest, have you priced up the seasoned oak at the quantity you require?

 

[Arenquerojo]

Yes, they're very, very expensive. I've not looked for others, but will have another look. In some respects we Brits have a good history of bog standard wood burning appliances & multi-fuel stoves, these for example are exceptional build quality;
http://www.woodwarmstoves.co.uk
Just out of interest, have you priced up the seasoned oak at the quantity you require?

Those look very attractive. Like the look of the Fireview Slim 14Kw with, say, a 20k btu tank. And there is a Portugese dealer listed. Sadly as far away as you can get in this country and I strongly suspect is an ex-pat Brit. I'll send him an enquiry...

Wood around here comes in trailer loads. I am told I should expect to pay 300 Euro (240 GBP) for a year's supply.

The ways of the mountain folk around here are a bit odd. We arranged to meet a guy who has a JCB to get a price for scraping what will be our driveway. He couldn't see us until the Saturday after next. I went up to the house last Saturday to find the job done and him gone again...

Hey Ho.
Patrick

 

[Richardthe3rd]

Yes, they're very, very expensive. I've not looked for others, but will have another look. In some respects we Brits have a good history of bog standard wood burning appliances & multi-fuel stoves, these for example are exceptional build quality;
http://www.woodwarmstoves.co.uk
Just out of interest, have you priced up the seasoned oak at the quantity you require?

Those look very attractive. Like the look of the Fireview Slim 14Kw with, say, a 20k btu tank. And there is a Portugese dealer listed. Sadly as far away as you can get in this country and I strongly suspect is an ex-pat Brit. I'll send him an enquiry...

Wood around here comes in trailer loads. I am told I should expect to pay 300 Euro (240 GBP) for a year's supply.

The ways of the mountain folk around here are a bit odd. We arranged to meet a guy who has a JCB to get a price for scraping what will be our driveway. He couldn't see us until the Saturday after next. I went up to the house last Saturday to find the job done and him gone again...

Hey Ho.
Patrick

That sounds a bargain for fuel!!!

I wouldn't knock the 'mountain folk' they sound very trusting.....

 

[JimCrow]

Yes, they're very, very expensive. I've not looked for others, but will have another look. In some respects we Brits have a good history of bog standard wood burning appliances & multi-fuel stoves, these for example are exceptional build quality;
http://www.woodwarmstoves.co.uk
Just out of interest, have you priced up the seasoned oak at the quantity you require?

Those look very attractive. Like the look of the Fireview Slim 14Kw with, say, a 20k btu tank. And there is a Portugese dealer listed. Sadly as far away as you can get in this country and I strongly suspect is an ex-pat Brit. I'll send him an enquiry...

Wood around here comes in trailer loads. I am told I should expect to pay 300 Euro (240 GBP) for a year's supply.

The ways of the mountain folk around here are a bit odd. We arranged to meet a guy who has a JCB to get a price for scraping what will be our driveway. He couldn't see us until the Saturday after next. I went up to the house last Saturday to find the job done and him gone again...

Hey Ho.
Patrick

That sounds a bargain for fuel!!!

I wouldn't knock the 'mountain folk' they sound very trusting.....

Brokeback Mountain your kinda mountain Dickie

 

[Agile]

Thanks for the fast response, Tony.
We have been told by a stove retailer that we should have 12Kw for the water and 8Kw for the room. The smallest wood burner with boiler that we have seen so far is 29Kw. The neighbour is putting the same one in his house and reckons it will need about 3 Kg of wood for an evening...
I have seen another stove at a friend's in Greece. I don't know the Kw of his stove but he gets the dinner cooked in the oven, four radiators for the evening and two showers - all out of one log of wood weighing about 1.5 Kg.
It is all new to me - hence the plea for help!

Patrick

I think you need to check your maths!

This web site shows that even oak only gives 4.5 kWh per kg!

So 1.5 kg of oak would give a gross heat output of less 7 kWh ! But the practical stove efficiency could be as low as 50-70%.

So I would use Richard's word "twaddle" for anyone who pretended to run three rads and two showers for an "evening" !

Take care, great care!

And before you hide behind the sales brochures, that's me in the photo cleaning the sight glass on the wood stove in France. I installed it too a couple of years ago.

Tony

 

[Richardthe3rd]

Yes, they're very, very expensive. I've not looked for others, but will have another look. In some respects we Brits have a good history of bog standard wood burning appliances & multi-fuel stoves, these for example are exceptional build quality;
http://www.woodwarmstoves.co.uk
Just out of interest, have you priced up the seasoned oak at the quantity you require?

Those look very attractive. Like the look of the Fireview Slim 14Kw with, say, a 20k btu tank. And there is a Portugese dealer listed. Sadly as far away as you can get in this country and I strongly suspect is an ex-pat Brit. I'll send him an enquiry...

Wood around here comes in trailer loads. I am told I should expect to pay 300 Euro (240 GBP) for a year's supply.

The ways of the mountain folk around here are a bit odd. We arranged to meet a guy who has a JCB to get a price for scraping what will be our driveway. He couldn't see us until the Saturday after next. I went up to the house last Saturday to find the job done and him gone again...

Hey Ho.
Patrick

That sounds a bargain for fuel!!!

I wouldn't knock the 'mountain folk' they sound very trusting.....

Brokeback Mountain your kinda mountain Dickie

I'm not gay fella, but my boyfriend is.