Newly installed combi boiler causing pipe leaks

[TelBee]

I had a Combi boiler installed 3 months ago and from the day of installation have had problems with the existing CH pipes leaking uder the higher pressure of the Combi.

No new pipes were fitted, the leaking pipes were exisiting ones and are fitted underfloor and have apparently corroded with lime. The previous boiler/heating system was a low pressure system, and there were no known leakage problems prior to the new boiler being installed.

The bolier now stops operating due to low pressure about twice a day, the installation company have advised that bypassing the undefloor pipework is the only way to fix the problem, but at my cost (which is not cheap)

Could anyone please tell me if:

a) Before installing the boiler a pressure test (which we were told was performed) would have indicated the suitability of the pipes for a combi (given that a pipe immediately leaked when the boiler was put into commisision), and

b) the company that fitted the boiler have any obligation to fix the problem if the combi boiler high pressure system was not suitable.

Thanks.

 

[Andygasman2010]

If they did a pressure test before i'd have expected it to fail quite badly, especially with a leak the drops pressure twice a day.

Not sure where you'd stand legally, in my opinion it's not fit for purpose and they should deal with it. Did they warn you of this before the installation?

Is it a major national you're dealing with?

 

[TelBee]

Thanks for the prompt reply Andy. They did not warn me about the risks before, though I was aware because I had heard of people with similar problems, and was in 2 minds whether to go with a combi for that reason.

The company is not a major national, but are reasonably large (i.e. not a one man band) local company, covering the London area.

 

[Agile]

I rather disagree with Andy about this.

They fitted a new boiler. They should have pressure tested but that would usually be over just a few minutes. A leak may well have developed over the first few hours of operation but after they pressure tested it.

Are your pipes burried in a concrete floor? Only in that case should they have warned you ( in writing ) of the severe aspects of pipes leaking.

Customers are very selective on what they admit we told them orally which is why all installers should explain in writing then the customer cannot pretend they were not told.

I would say that it can be reasonably assumed that any properly installed system will not leak if the pressure is raised from 0.3 Bar to 1.5 Bar. They are your pipes and your responsibility.

It is good customer relations and a professional attitude to always inform a customer in writing that any leaks will be the customers responsibility. I would do that and most should but some dont.

So whats under the floor and why can that not be inspected?

Tony

 

[sherbert]

Have had a similiar problem in that it only started after we put heat onto the systemThe original boiler was only 15Kw and the new combi was 30Kw not sure if it was due to the expansion being alot quicker on the pipes or pre-existing leak but only dropping every day

luckily we had expressed concern about the existing system and we always change all the rad valves when converting from header tank to pressurised
I feel that the company have been asked to change a boiler and have no responsibilty to remedy the pipework but they could help out by doing it at cost for the goodwill that it may generate

Sherbert

 

[TelBee]

Agile,

thanks for the input

The pipes are buried under the floor in concrete, and I was not made aware (either verbally or in writing) with the associated risk.

As I mentioned, I was aware of the risk of going to a combi boiler because of increased water pressure, but did not know that the risk increased if the pipes were buried in concrete (unfortunately i now do).

 

[Mark Br]

Sorry Andy, but I would also disagree in respect to the company has a responsibility as it's not fit for purpose (whether they mentioned the potential for leaks or not).

If pipes are corroding in the floor all the new (higher pressure due to sealed system) boiler has done is highlight the problem sooner than later. All pipes should be capable of taking the pressure and resisting corrosion if installed properly. As this company did not install the pipes then all they are guilty of is not advising you of the risks (have a look at there T&C's to be sure).

As a gesture of goodwill all I would expect them to do is give you a slightly discounted price for replacing the pipes.

 

[electronicsuk]

You admit yourself that you were aware of the implications of converting to a sealed system, so whether or not the installer pointed this out is irrelevant unless you are looking to place blame rather than pay for the necessary repairs?

It would be interesting to hear what the pressure test consisted of. More than likely it was only of a very short duration - after all, I doubt you'd be happy paying the installer to sit and drink coffee for hours while periodically checking a pressure gauge. If that's the case then it's not surprising that your leak wasn't detected (if it even was present at that stage - it might have been a combination of heat and pressure), but again, it's hardly the installers fault.

Before you go ripping your house to bits, I assume you've confirmed that the leak isn't somewhere a little easier to get to? Worth checking the PRV on the boiler, and perhaps the cylinder coil if you have a vented HW system. The latter is unlikely though, as you'd probably have noticed the header tank overflowing by now.

 

[PEDANTICVINDICTIVEMAN]

I always verbally discuss and put it in writing at the bottom of my quotes, warning of such problems, and that it is extra to repair such problems, if the customer got the quote and ordered the work they knew about it beforehand.

 

[transam]

If you ever seal up an old system ( old being ?) always consider useing a plate exc , can save alot of grief , to late now !!

And never seal up an old servowarm system

 

[TelBee]

Just to update the thread (for reference for anyone else in this situation)following further independent advice:

1) The Institute of Plumbing & Heating have advised that the pressure test should have been performed over a duration of at least 2 hours in order to allow weak pipes to be identified. After this point the installer should have made us aware of the existence of weak pipes and the need for a decision to a) replace pipes or b) use an alternative (lower pressure) boiler.

2) The Institute of Plumbing & Heating have also advised that failure to perform 1) means that the system is not fit for purpose, and if adequate tests had been performed then we would not be be faced with the current problems.

3) Consumer Direct advised that there is a case of the installation not being fit for purpose, that the installer "has not used reasonable skill and care" and the installer has a responsibility "to make good and cover damage".

4) Consumer Direct advised that the installer should have made us aware of the risks prior to installation, in writing.

All of the above are still valid even though the contract for the installation has a disclaimer for not covering existing pipework (on the grounds that a properly conducted test should have identified weak pipework, and hence whether the supplied boiler was fit for purpose).

Note that in this particular case the pipes failed immediately on commissioning, were initially repaired, but subsequently failed on several occasions.

TelBee.

 

[TelBee]

PS: Thanks to everyone who went to the trouble to post replies on this topic, it is much appreciated.

 

[bengasman]

1. The new combi does not cause your pipes to leak; they are leaking due to poor maintenance during the many years before the new boiler was installed.

2. Unless they accepted responsibility for future leaks ( I doubt they did ) they don't have to solve your problem.

And as for Consumer Direct , they are a bunch of idiots. Few, if any, of them have legal qualifications, and none of them have what it takes to get a job in the real world.

 

[alittlerespect]

Hi

You had better check out the water pressure on the system, sounds like you have too many psi's over pressuring the sytem!

Minimum pressure should be no less than 0.5bar when cold, and a maximum no more than 1.5bar at normal operating temperature.

Check the maintenance manual for your particular boiler as there may be some variations between manufacturer's, but a too high a pressure would account for the problems that you are encountering.

Regards

 

[bengasman]

alittlerespect

I do hope you are householder and not a plumber/RGI; your reply is as pointless as it is factually wrong.