No real alternatives to fossil fuels ..

[wobs]

Maybe, but 1970 is quite a while after 1954.

What was the proportion in 1958 when I started Grammar School.


You are baselessly disputing what I/we heard and was/were told - be it right or wrong.

The fact that there are articles disputing the ideas must prove that they were said.

With the greatest of respect, you seem to be mixing up two issues here. The Strauss speech in 1954 we regarding energy production. The article in 1974 (and othe a few other articles a little later) referred to a coming ice age. Something that the majority of climate scientists at the time did not believe. Even the Time article said that the increase in CO2 could have the opposite effect.

What both issues have in common though is that they are often mis-represented. We hear these stories been repeated, but that doesn't make them true. Its ok to learn more about where these ideas come from or what is the story behind these ideas. We all repeat things we later find are false at some point.

And really, these are historical issues, and not things that should weigh on what we do in future, when we now have far more data on both issues. Yes we can learn from history, but it has to be based on the truth, and not fear.
We now know that nuclear is the safest energy source we have, that we need low carbon energy sources (not just one) as a matter of urgency, and that we will need a great deal more electricity in the coming years*. Especially if we are to wean ourselves off fossil fuels.


* - Energy efficiency won't help us.

 

[IT Minion]

We now know that nuclear is the safest energy source we have, that we need low carbon energy sources (not just one) as a matter of urgency, and that we will need a great deal more

Don't you mean decades? Let's face it, nuclear has a very long lead time.

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

We now know that nuclear is the safest energy source we have, that we need low carbon energy sources (not just one) as a matter of urgency, and that we will need a great deal more electricity in the coming years*. Especially if we are to wean ourselves off fossil fuels.

Nuclear plus the massive infrastructure upgrade to go with it. It will be the 1920's through to the 1960's all over again, putting in the essential infrastructure - who is going to finance it all this time?

 

[JohnD]

Tax the poor?

 

[transam]

All this ban gas etc caper by 2035

is imo just some sound sound bite put out for the forth coming talk show in Glasgow

looks and sounds good any way

this 5 grand grant

dare day most if that will be hoovered up by snout in the trough pencil pushers and there red tape

 

[ajohn]

The strange thing is grants for heat pumps. £5000 per unit but the number it will cover is really miniscule compared with the number of gas boilers around. Still need another £5k so grants will be gobbled up by people who can afford that. Chances are if the can afford £5k paying the entire cost would not be that dramatic just rather uncomfortable.

Greens are rightfully saying the first thing needed is insulation and they don't mean just in the roof. One "good" thing about some methods is that it will cause many builds to fall down eventually so they will be built again maybe properly this time.

RR's little nuc stations are roughly the size of 2 football pitches. I suppose having loads of them minimises the cost of boosting the capacity of the distribution networks. Still leaves many houses with the supply ratings they currently have. Also I'd guess there will be little interest in burying cables so yet more pylons.

Total costs have been mentioned but have gone quiet again. Billions were mentioned 3/4 falling directly on the public. The gov's 1/4 does as well really.

LOL One green mentioned the same as me on our carbon footprint - most of it is overseas. Maybe she read my posts.

 

[transam]

Any one with a combi
Which afaik are the most popular boilers

will need to change to a hot water storage cylinder

plus a buffer tank

(Space may be an issue )

and all the relevant controls and wiring plus the radiators may need up grading so as to work with lower temperatures

pipe sizing

than there is the insulation up grade ?

Some ( all?)flats will prove a logistical problem

one could of course in some cases just buy a leccy boiler ? Which will take the place of a gas boiler

providing it’s a small property and only requires a heat only boiler ?

running costs ???

 

[IT Minion]

If you upgrade the insulation then you don't need to upgrade the radiators.

 

[sxturbo]

The strange thing is grants for heat pumps. £5000 per unit but the number it will cover is really miniscule compared with the number of gas boilers around. Still need another £5k so grants will be gobbled up by people who can afford that. Chances are if the can afford £5k paying the entire cost would not be that dramatic just rather uncomfortable.

Greens are rightfully saying the first thing needed is insulation and they don't mean just in the roof. One "good" thing about some methods is that it will cause many builds to fall down eventually so they will be built again maybe properly this time.

RR's little nuc stations are roughly the size of 2 football pitches. I suppose having loads of them minimises the cost of boosting the capacity of the distribution networks. Still leaves many houses with the supply ratings they currently have. Also I'd guess there will be little interest in burying cables so yet more pylons.

Total costs have been mentioned but have gone quiet again. Billions were mentioned 3/4 falling directly on the public. The gov's 1/4 does as well really.

LOL One green mentioned the same as me on our carbon footprint - most of it is overseas. Maybe she read my posts.

another report by the treasury said that this going green caper is only suiting the already wealthy and will only serve those.

the less well off will be plunged further into poverty because of it as they cannot afford the additional money required and thus cannot benefit from the savings offers out there.

the example above, all very well and good the government offering 5k for the heat pump, but you still need to put another 5k towards it. Those who are not well off generally tend to replace boilers when they have to and go for the cheapest option and generally a like for like.

The same with cars, electric cars are currently a fortune. it's al very well for those that can afford teslas buying them and not paying road tax and reaping the benefits. Even an electric vauxhall corsa was like 30k.

I dont believe road tax should be free on electric vehicles, i think it should be based on the kw of the motors installed, or on the retail value of the car when new.

Electric cars will have much shorter lifespans than fossil fuel equivalents, the batteries will be too expensive to buy as they are bespoke for each manufacture and model, and the cost of installing them will be very high also with pretty much all cars requiring the interior to be removed to gain access, meaning cars will be scrapped much sooner.

only people winning here is the wealthy...

 

[ajohn]

If you upgrade the insulation then you don't need to upgrade the radiators.

I wouldn't be so sure about that but it will depend on how efficient insulation is. It a fact that to get the best out of a condensing gas boiler the lot needs replacing but in that case insulation can bring the radiator sizes needed down.

Efficiency can mean additional profit as well. It's just and effect of how business works.

 

[Munroast]

Out of curiosity - with an air source at pump on a day when the temperature is 4c, what is the output temperature? what temperature would you be able to get the radiators up to.

Also, where are we going to get the workforce from to fit 50,000 heat pumps per week ? (26million homes in 10 years)

 

[diy_fun_uk]

I get that much of this is crystal ball stuff with a healthy dose of media stirring, however if some of the stuff being reported comes to fruition it's going to be fun times (not) ahead. For example, they're now saying mortgages might only be approved if the property in question ticks these green boxes. So if you want to sell/buy, somewhere in the chain people could have bills of thousands to make their property 'green mortgageable.' Some already saying all that will achieve is stagnation in the property market as more might simply choose to stay put and save the £££.

And I come back to my earlier point. Our forward planning is always rubbish. How 'green' are the 1000's of new houses being thrown up all over the country, in terms of insulation, heating systems etc? I remember watching a tv prog a few years back about how good new houses should be, but that they're still falling way short of the mark. I wonder if that's still the case with 2021 cookie cutter builds, indeed any houses/apartments being built present day.

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

If you upgrade the insulation then you don't need to upgrade the radiators.

Yep - my system was put in, in the 80's based on draughty windows, doors, single glazing, no CWI, little loft insulation. All of which have no been done, so my radiators are much bigger output than needed - which means they only need to be just slightly warm most of the winter and have massive over capacity, allowing the boiler an easy time too and working at best efficiency.

 

[IT Minion]

Out of curiosity - with an air source at pump on a day when the temperature is 4c, what is the output temperature? what temperature would you be able to get the radiators up to.

Also, where are we going to get the workforce from to fit 50,000 heat pumps per week ? (26million homes in 10 years)

We haven't (yet) said we need to replace the existing boilers by then, just stop adding as many new ones and start adding heat pumps instead. But if Brexit has taught us anything we can just magic up trained professionals with only a moments notice. So we don't need to worry.

As to your other question, it depends. In a properly sized system you can probably get it to the same as a normal boiler. But doing so is expensive as you're running the heat pump in a less efficient mode, so it's more expensive. By dropping the operating temperature a bit and increasing the volume of water you're heating, you can get in a more efficient area so it costs less even as it provides the same amount of heat.

 

[IT Minion]

Electric cars will have much shorter lifespans than fossil fuel equivalents, the batteries will be too expensive to buy as they are bespoke for each manufacture and model, and the cost of installing them will be very high also with pretty much all cars requiring the interior to be removed to gain access, meaning cars will be scrapped much sooner.

They're simpler so have less things to break. So they'll last longer.

Third party batteries already exist for some models. The cost to fit them is high but it's still a niche market at the moment. If Nio manage to get battery swapping to take off then clearly it's not going to be hard.

The battery price has dropped something stupid like 88% in the last decade. It is expected to drop further for the next decade at least. The price isn't going to be an issue for long.