Norway
- Thread starter peak2peak
- Start date
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Ring Finals:
Because few other countries, and none without an historical British influence, ever thought they were a good idea.
UFH? No idea.
Confirm why? Maybe someone who knows the Norwegian electricity or building codes.
Why are you shocked, BTW?
Because few other countries, and none without an historical British influence, ever thought they were a good idea.
UFH? No idea.
Confirm why? Maybe someone who knows the Norwegian electricity or building codes.
Why are you shocked, BTW?
I can only assume the regulation concerning UFH on concrete has little to do with electrical regs, and is more about thermal efficiency. UFH directly laid onto concrete will lose a fair amount of heat into the ground, one would assume.
You need to ask on a Norwegian forum. They have different regs, eat raw fish and have Fjords that were designed by Slartibartfast.
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Ring circuits can only be used with fused plugs / fused spurs. You should absolutely never use them with other types of plugs e.g. Schuko as used in Norway (and most of Europe).
The ring system is pretty much unique to the UK and Ireland. Even in Ireland we tend to prefer radials where practical and also have rules about not using rings in kitchens.
The reason the UK and Ireland use fused plugs is because of the ring circuit i.e. they protect the appliance and its cord. Otherwise they would be sitting on a 32A ring and could pose a serious fire hazard.
Other countries use non-fused plugs and radial circuits, typically protected with a breaker or fuse rated at 15A (US/Canada) 16A (Most of Europe/Australia etc) or 20A (Some of Europe)
Norwegian electrical regulations, from what I've heard, are very strict. I would suggest that you call a local electrician as you could land yourself in serious trouble with the building inspectors and your home insurance company if you attempt to do it yourself and don't do it to Norwegian standards.
The ring system is pretty much unique to the UK and Ireland. Even in Ireland we tend to prefer radials where practical and also have rules about not using rings in kitchens.
The reason the UK and Ireland use fused plugs is because of the ring circuit i.e. they protect the appliance and its cord. Otherwise they would be sitting on a 32A ring and could pose a serious fire hazard.
Other countries use non-fused plugs and radial circuits, typically protected with a breaker or fuse rated at 15A (US/Canada) 16A (Most of Europe/Australia etc) or 20A (Some of Europe)
Norwegian electrical regulations, from what I've heard, are very strict. I would suggest that you call a local electrician as you could land yourself in serious trouble with the building inspectors and your home insurance company if you attempt to do it yourself and don't do it to Norwegian standards.
Was over there last week and noticed that they appear to permit standard sockets in a bathroom where BS regulations would not. RCBO's all over the place though we know they aren't 100%. Mrs loved it as she could plug her hair dryer in.
The UK and Ireland are pretty much the only countries in the world that don't allow standard sockets (protected by an appropriate RCD) in the bathroom.
Yet, we have no problem allowing a 40Amp electric water heater aka an electric shower to be installed in the shower cubicle
Electric showers mostly just rely on the RCD protection, they're not fully waterproof or anything like that. Just generally splash proofed.
Something that most European countries' electrical inspectors would keel over at the very thought of!
Talk about double standards!
Yet, we have no problem allowing a 40Amp electric water heater aka an electric shower to be installed in the shower cubicle
Electric showers mostly just rely on the RCD protection, they're not fully waterproof or anything like that. Just generally splash proofed.
Something that most European countries' electrical inspectors would keel over at the very thought of!
Talk about double standards!
They aren't more than splashproof, I've just been reading Triton's specs and they're only IP X4 !!!
All that means is that there is no rating for the access to hazardous parts i.e. X
The 4 just means it's safe to splash it with water. It does not even mean that it's safe to spray it with a powerful jet!
http://www.tritonshowers.co.uk/media/6732/t150z.pdf (See Page 2)
For protection you are most definitely relying on the RCD, not the shower unit itself.
If you've ever seen one installed, they are absolutely 100% definitely NOT waterproof.
So, given that such a device is allowed to be installed in the shower area itself, where it will be used by people standing with bare feet to shower, I really don't see why there are so many hangups about installing a socket if it's also protected by an RCD.
I think you'd find that a UK / Ireland style electric shower would be an absolute breech of the electrical regs in most other countries.
While they generally seem to cause no problems, it has always surprised me that they got past the regulators in the UK and Ireland given how tight they are with other aspects of using electricity in the bathroom.
Personally, I never feel very comfortable about the idea of an electric shower. We installed one, but it's a remote heater version. The heating unit is located behind a wall, it's not in the shower area.
All that means is that there is no rating for the access to hazardous parts i.e. X
The 4 just means it's safe to splash it with water. It does not even mean that it's safe to spray it with a powerful jet!
http://www.tritonshowers.co.uk/media/6732/t150z.pdf (See Page 2)
For protection you are most definitely relying on the RCD, not the shower unit itself.
If you've ever seen one installed, they are absolutely 100% definitely NOT waterproof.
So, given that such a device is allowed to be installed in the shower area itself, where it will be used by people standing with bare feet to shower, I really don't see why there are so many hangups about installing a socket if it's also protected by an RCD.
I think you'd find that a UK / Ireland style electric shower would be an absolute breech of the electrical regs in most other countries.
While they generally seem to cause no problems, it has always surprised me that they got past the regulators in the UK and Ireland given how tight they are with other aspects of using electricity in the bathroom.
Personally, I never feel very comfortable about the idea of an electric shower. We installed one, but it's a remote heater version. The heating unit is located behind a wall, it's not in the shower area.
Well they are very naughty boys
Let's look at France. Only cos I got an O'level in it and once upon a time I was fluent. Notwithstanding the fact that you probably don't have enough power to run an electric shower in a large number of French homes, and they tend to be poorly earthed compared to UK homes, what do the French regs say:
http://www.norme-electricite.com/protection/protection.html#salle-de-bain
The zones are remarkably similar to UK Zones (which one would expect as this all comes from the EU now)
My reading is for an electric shower (This comes under "Chauffe-eau instantané " - instant hot water as opposed to stored hot water) in a shower cubicle you need:
1) Classe I + DDR 30mA (Class I insulated, 30mA RCD)
2) Indice de Protection (IP) requis 4 (IPX 4)
3) Le chauffe-eau doit être raccordé au réseau d'eau par des tuyaux conducteurs (en métal) fixes. (Metal water pipes)
My rubbish translation in italics
Seems to me that the French have the same IP requirement for showers as you claim the UK has (which one would expect as this all comes from the EU now)
Let's look at France. Only cos I got an O'level in it and once upon a time I was fluent. Notwithstanding the fact that you probably don't have enough power to run an electric shower in a large number of French homes, and they tend to be poorly earthed compared to UK homes, what do the French regs say:
http://www.norme-electricite.com/protection/protection.html#salle-de-bain
The zones are remarkably similar to UK Zones (which one would expect as this all comes from the EU now)
My reading is for an electric shower (This comes under "Chauffe-eau instantané " - instant hot water as opposed to stored hot water) in a shower cubicle you need:
1) Classe I + DDR 30mA (Class I insulated, 30mA RCD)
2) Indice de Protection (IP) requis 4 (IPX 4)
3) Le chauffe-eau doit être raccordé au réseau d'eau par des tuyaux conducteurs (en métal) fixes. (Metal water pipes)
My rubbish translation in italics
Seems to me that the French have the same IP requirement for showers as you claim the UK has (which one would expect as this all comes from the EU now)
I don't "claim" the UK has these regulations, it does have these regulations regarding IP ratings for electrical devices in bathrooms.
However, in my experience talking to electrical contractors from Germany / Austria etc the reaction to putting an instantaneous water heater into the shower cubicle is generally one of horror, even if the pan-European regs might permit it.
Incidentally, it is legal to use portable appliances i.e. plugged into a socket in the UK and Ireland in a bathroom provided it's outside Zone 2.
Quite a lot of the practices in the UK and Ireland with regard to bathrooms are not really strict adherence to the regs anyway.
Rather, they're practices that pre-date common usage of RCDs so they are a little unnecessarily strict with what you can and can't install.
It's also common to find errors like in small bathrooms non-compliant light fittings that are way too close to zone 1 for comfort. While technically compliant, they're just not safe from a practical point of view.
The rules are rules, but there is also an element of practical common sense that needs to be applied too.
I just find the British/Irish reaction to a socket in a bathroom on the continent or in the US can be a little ridiculous.
Sort of "OMG - they have electricity in the bathroom".
It's just a little ironic, given the fondness for electric showers which we really don't even think twice about
In general, if local electrical regulations are actually complied with and a bit of common sense is used too, systems are very safe in all EU countries. Problems only arise when you get bad DIY hack jobs, incompetent non-compliant installations and people who apply the rules to the letter of the law but ignore the other practical implications e.g. items being way too close to zone 1 for comfort, even if they're technically compliant with the rules.
All bathrooms should be properly planned from the point of view of electrical safety. It's just common sense!
However, in my experience talking to electrical contractors from Germany / Austria etc the reaction to putting an instantaneous water heater into the shower cubicle is generally one of horror, even if the pan-European regs might permit it.
Incidentally, it is legal to use portable appliances i.e. plugged into a socket in the UK and Ireland in a bathroom provided it's outside Zone 2.
Quite a lot of the practices in the UK and Ireland with regard to bathrooms are not really strict adherence to the regs anyway.
Rather, they're practices that pre-date common usage of RCDs so they are a little unnecessarily strict with what you can and can't install.
It's also common to find errors like in small bathrooms non-compliant light fittings that are way too close to zone 1 for comfort. While technically compliant, they're just not safe from a practical point of view.
The rules are rules, but there is also an element of practical common sense that needs to be applied too.
I just find the British/Irish reaction to a socket in a bathroom on the continent or in the US can be a little ridiculous.
Sort of "OMG - they have electricity in the bathroom".
It's just a little ironic, given the fondness for electric showers which we really don't even think twice about
In general, if local electrical regulations are actually complied with and a bit of common sense is used too, systems are very safe in all EU countries. Problems only arise when you get bad DIY hack jobs, incompetent non-compliant installations and people who apply the rules to the letter of the law but ignore the other practical implications e.g. items being way too close to zone 1 for comfort, even if they're technically compliant with the rules.
All bathrooms should be properly planned from the point of view of electrical safety. It's just common sense!
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