Big_Spark said:
HOWEVER I do not agree that ANPR systems should be used to track movements, tag people as they happen to be driving down the road as someone a bit iffy or any of the other stuff being discussed.
Softus said:
ANPR isn't being, and it can't be, used to track
people.
Actually you are very wrong on this point. I know several Police officers who operate ANPR systems, and the information and other data is currently held on file by the Police so "assist with future prosecutions". The argument is that they may not be aware that a vehicle has been stolen or used in the commission of a crime at the time it passes the ANPR unit, but the evidence it did would assist in prosecuting the offender. Even the Officers accept this is a falacious argument as the information is passed to one of several other Police departments, including NCIS (National Crminial Intelligence Service), SO14, DoL, DoI and various OCU's.
Yes it is an infringement of our civil liberties...
Softus said:
How, exactly? Precisely which basic human or civil right does it prevent you from enjoying?
Hague Convention on Human Rights 1956. The UK government signed this. It states that citizens of a signatory nation have the right to travel freely within their nation without undue interference, monitoring or surveillance by representatives of the Government or Security Services unless they are under formal investigation. It is our right to move freely, without being monitored, our journeys tracked and those we speak too survielled.
...but it is also a system that is so open to abuse that it should be totally illegal.
Softus said:
What are you saying should be illegal? Spying? Keeping data without permission? Those things already are illegal.
It should be illegal for the harnessing of information about people into databases linked to the ANPR and similar related systems UNLESS that person is reasonably thought to be engaged in criminal activety and the monitoring is simply to add weight to evidence in a criminal prosecution. This is also the opinion of many rank and file Police Officers.
The Police and the Government do not have the right to tack us, The Police have a legal responsibility to UPHOLD THE LAW AND PREVENT CRIME, ANPR can do this without all the other data links and monitoring. The Police are quickly becoming a tool for oppression in this country.
Softus said:
Please explain how (a) the degree of oppression has changed, and (b) why you describe that change as one that is happening quickly.
I would suggest you look up the word oppression in a dictionary then apply it to having your every movement monitored. We are already the most survielled civillian population on planet Earth. The Police are a driving force in that culture, and there is not proof that this surviellance has actually reduced criminal activety, it has simply shifted it elswhere or the criminals to steps to neutralise the camera threat.
The argument that if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear is ridiculous.
Softus said:
Please explain why that belief is one that is deserving of ridicule.
The argument can be ridiculed in everyway concievable. I do not hold with the view we should be monitored all the time, I do agree with ID cards as I do believe they will be beneficial. But the fact that many people are made to feel like a criminal when dealing with the Police proves that the psychological impact of covert Policing makes everyone appear as a criminal to the Police. The Police already suffer from a serious image problem due to a "Them and Us" attitude by both many Police Officers and the general public. Overt, and Covert surviellance will only highlight these issues further and ensure a continued errosion of the relationship between the Police and the Public. I have visited countries with oppressive state control, where people are afraid to even joke about the most trivial political thing for fear of being "branded" anti-government. This is an incidious form of oppression that even afflicts those who would never dream of doing anything illegal. If the actions of the Government and/or the Police create a state of fear, then that is oppression, whether intended, real or not. The State, the Police and the general public MUST ensure this does not come about. Without the Public the Police cannot fully function, without the Police, Society cannot function, and then the state cannot function.However the Public need to trust and respect the Police for this relationship to continue, if it is eroded then we have a serious problem.
I have nothing to hide, and do not suffer from paranoia, however I am a little uncomfortable with the idea that I am unable to live my life without it being in a b****y government sponsored fish bowl.
Softus said:
[Quite so - your view is reasonable, rational, and objectively presented.
I suppose if you have no life then you do not understand.
The Government and the Police work for US, both parties need to remember that. We task the Government with running the country on our behalf, and we task the Police with Upholding the Law and preventing crime..in niether case are they tasked with spying on us and monitoring our movements.
Softus said:
Glad we agree on something rather fundermentally important at least!
It is a fine line, I agree, but if we do not put a stop to this monitoring now, who knows what will happen next...
Softus said:
[More monitoring, presumably. Or you are expecting some kind of Spanish Inquisition?
I think that kind of flippant remark does not do you or this discussion justice.
Afterall, with all the information being gathered, who is to say that Tony Blair and his cronnies would not use the technology to help them rig the next election..it is possible, and where then are the high an mighty values espoused by some...
Softus said:
[This one is a beauty. And you still say that you're not paranoid?
It is not paranioa to see what
COULD happen. This is not to say it will, but it is not outside the realms of possibility. We alkready know that they are corrupt, so it is not too far fetched to think that some or all may consider ways to stay in power. Afterall, nothing corrupts power like absolute power.
We are seeing an incidious creep toward state control of every part of our lives, before long elections will be a moot point and we will have not freedoms left..
Softus said:
[You might be seeing it, but the word "we" suggests that your head is the host to multiple personalities.
Enough with the the personal comments, you know the context I meant, your simply being obtuse now.
