Piled foundation underpinning.

[Northbeach]

Hi all,

Recently created a thread re possible subsidence in a house we are looking to buy. In the end the thorough structural survey came back with a recommendation (actually many recommendations, most minor, as it's a 1930's semi) for further investigation on possible subsidence (mortgage survey 'advised' this was not necessary and the movement was 'long standing' and 'not progressive').
So we organised a structural surveyor to go out and take a proper look and dig bore holes. The report (back a short while ago) recommends that due to the poor ground conditions (from the exploratory bore holes) they are unable to provide a guarantee of cessation of movement - in order to provide this guarantee it would be necessary to underpin (strip not suitable therefore it recommends piled foundations).

It then advised gaining competitive quotes and a spec and scheme drawn up (costing around £450) - then professional fees for designs and drawings et al sort for tender to builders etc.
Anticipated cost for underpinning work - £15,000!

Really not sure where we stand with this - we're still keen on the house as it offers us more over better long term (corner plot, plenty of room for extensions...). We went right up to the budget on this house so definitely no room for us to pay that - I'm hoping the house's insurance would cover it (after which we take over the vendors house insurance).
£15,000 does sound an awful lot for what amounts to subsidence affecting one side/corner of the house.
A small part of me tells me to leave it until we eventually extend (and strengthen the foundations when adding new ones) but if it is genuinely beginning to fall down (and the building surveyor and structural company are both locally renown and respected)...

We sold our own some time ago, and two other houses have already fallen through...this really is testing our collective heads!

Hope somebody can help shed a little light on this...

Many thanks.

 

[r896neo]

I wouldn't be so alarmist, the house is certainly not falling down or the surveyor would have said action must be taken urgently. In reality he has said he cannot guarantee it is not still moving. It is worded like this for a reason.

If a structural engineer/ surveyor provides you a report saying the movement is historic and the house is not still subsiding and the house does then make further movement then he could be sued for the costs to put it right or at the very worst re-build the house. So he must cover himself by only making statements like that if he is certain. If he is not certain then he must advise you of the possible ramifications and costs of getting that certainty that it will not move again.

So in effect there is a chance the house will move again but to be certain it will not you have to pay 15 grand. Of course it may not move again and it will all be fine but that is a risk and in essence that is why you payed the surveyor to help you understand the risk better so you can choose the best course.

hmm late at night, got a bit waffly and philosophical there.....

 

[Northbeach]

I wouldn't be so alarmist, the house is certainly not falling down or the surveyor would have said action must be taken urgently. In reality he has said he cannot guarantee it is not still moving. It is worded like this for a reason.

If a structural engineer/ surveyor provides you a report saying the movement is historic and the house is not still subsiding and the house does then make further movement then he could be sued for the costs to put it right or at the very worst re-build the house. So he must cover himself by only making statements like that if he is certain. If he is not certain then he must advise you of the possible ramifications and costs of getting that certainty that it will not move again.

So in effect there is a chance the house will move again but to be certain it will not you have to pay 15 grand. Of course it may not move again and it will all be fine but that is a risk and in essence that is why you payed the surveyor to help you understand the risk better so you can choose the best course.

hmm late at night, got a bit waffly and philosophical there.....

Philosophical maybe, but certainly not waffly!
That's made me feel a little better about the situation. Main concern really is who is going to pay for this work (as I mentioned before, we really are up to the limit and irrespective of the subsidence issue there are myriad more things need fixing with the house which will cost us a bob or two...mainly cosmetic thankfully). I'd hope the vendor can get this sorted through his insurance or sources quotes himself and gets it sorted.

Was slightly concerned that having 'underpinned' on the house records would inhibit our ability a few years down the road were we to sell (but that wouldn't be for at least 10 years). We plan a bit of a overhaul and extensions anyway...the house would be 'stronger' and 'better looking' than when we took it over.
We've had a few people express shock that we're even thinking of moving into a house with this issue, but then we know many more who had done the same some remedying the issue, some not bothering (fell in the love with the house, will soon extend etc) and it's by far the best opportunity in the area (an area we have to be in due to work/school commitments). Others close by simply do not have the space to live in comfortably or extend out (we've recently had a third child).

Not sure how we are going to play this today - the vendor will have got the same report yesterday (went halves on the report) and I know the estate agent will be calling to gain our opinion.
Working on the situation where it's no major panic (as you pointed out and calmed me down!) we could 'forget the issue' and wait till we start to extend the property, sorting the issue when new foundations are laid)...but I guarantee the missus won't like that idea!

Huge thanks for your reply.

 

[SimonH2]

Well it may be worth discussing with the vendor and see if he is prepared to adjust the price.

At the moment, he has a buyer who is still interested after the revelations. Given that he and his estate agent now know about this issue, they cannot fail to disclose it to future potential buyers and if he's any sense he'll realise that he could struggle to find another buyer. My reading is that it's a buyers market at the moment for those that can get funding, and it would be a foolish vendor that forgot that.

So it may well be that he'll be prepared to drop the price on the basis that you buy it "as seen", that way he's rid of the problem.

 

[Northbeach]

I've just posted the following in the building regs forum as my initial post regarding this matter was entered there:

I was praying this would not turn out to be the case (falling through) as we had the usual hopes/plans/dreams pinned on this house. We had a structural dig as recommended by our surveyor. Turns out they could also not guarantee the house would not move any further. The soil below was pretty poor (sandy) and underpinning was suggested. However due to the aforementioned soil quality, standard foundations would not be suitable and pile driven foundations were necessary (the survey company is very well regarded locally btw). Probably looking at £15k fix. The vendor would try and go down the insurance route, but this (as mentioned above) could take months/years.
The area is known to have issues with subsidence (medium risk area) as it's close to a river. However houses go very quickly there and houses are being worked on/extended all the time - very popular area to live.

I neglected to mention the roof had issues too - sagging purlins one of which (bottom) had rotated on it's vertical axis and bowed along it's length; a diagonally placed lintel holding the chimney up (unorthodox but apparantly suitable for the job); and a rear hip rafter split. The roof had been replaced in the last 5/10 years - perhaps too heavy for it's support? Recommended replacing roof timbers - £10 -12k or strengthening the purlins (our own surveyor did not think it necessary to replace timbers).

That's potentially circa £25k of work already...and I also did not mention possible dry/wet rot flagged up in the original survey.
We were recommended by our own surveyor, a friend who is an industrial surveyor to walk...and so, sadly, we did.

Anyway, a month or so later we now have another two options (both 1930's - 1950's semis) - one which has pretty much everything done to a pretty good spec (new roof, chimney taken out, nice lighting, maple flooring, new kitchen/bathroom et al - but small garden, shared drive, small loft and no space for extra extension) and the other (which appeared a couple of days back) needs a royal clean up and strip - electrics look 50 odd years old - an interior wall or two will have to come down and all decor and plaster will need replacing...but it has a garage attached and potential to extend to the side and in the large, dormer style loft - just requires a leap of faith!

Thanks for the advice.

 

[Northbeach]

...oh and I'll try and add a couple of pics of the loft...most bizarre thing I've seen - put paid to any loft conversions up there!

 

[r896neo]

thanks for the update, it's always nice to hear how things went. Just a shame it doesn't happen more often.

 

[Northbeach]

thanks for the update, it's always nice to hear how things went. Just a shame it doesn't happen more often.

What - house sales falling through due to poor soil/poor builds?!

 

[kate2222]

Hi folks
I have had a BTL re-mortgage declined as surveyor recomended a structural engineer to check out evidence of movement which could be hisoric. I had the SE report done and the comments were 1 the drain and gully adjacent to front wall repair/replace if and as necessary within next 12 months to prevent longterm softening of the foundation supporting stratum that is probably responsible for the limited longterm differential foundation settlement that is occuring to the property in this area.

2 It would be necessary to stitch together the inner and outer skins of gable wall and outrigger side wall if any lateral distortion of these walls is progressive in the future but such remedial works are not necessary to date.
Because the lenders surveyor reported back 'future possible movement is highly unlikely' rather than give them a 100% no future movement they refuse to lend
who can guarantee anything 100%???