Potential dispute over shared wall - help!

[KumquatMay]

I have also posted in gardens - not sure which is the most appropriate!
We have recently noticed that the back wall of our yard (split 50/50 between neighbours property and ours as we are part of a row of terraces), is leaning having buckled at the bottom. It faces out on to a public alleyway and I am concerned that it is a hazard for people walking past. IMO and those of the builders who have come to quote, it needs demolishing and rebuilding asap.

Despite having a good relationship with our neighbours, we are finding it impossible to get them to talk to us about the issue. I went round when we first noticed it just to warn them it is dangerous, to let them know I would stick a few signs to the wall and also to say I would be getting a few quotes for the work and could we talk about it at a later date? My husband has since been round twice to try and talk/book a time to discuss, each time they say they will pop over either that day or later in the week and they have not.
The quotes come in at around £750. All we want to do at this stage is show them how dangerous the wall is and discuss how we might approach the work. We are happy to oversee the work but it is not solely our responsibility, nor can we finance it all, since it spans across both our yards.

I do not want to harass our neighbours, but I do want them to acknowledge the responsibilities they have as home-owners and at least discuss the issue with us so we can come to some sort of agreement. My only thought is that it might be worth reporting to the council as a dangerous structure (since it faces onto a public alley) and try and put a bit of pressure on them that way.

Does anyone have any advice on how to handle this?

 

[Griff500]

Your right, its your (and your neighbors) responsibility and it needs addressing asap. Its a bit hard to tell from your description if it needs replacing or not as it depends on height, how much out of plumb it is and the wall make up etc. A qualified structural engineer is best consulted for this.

If you report the wall as a dangerous structure to your local authority then they will send an engineer round to look at and assess the wall, bear in mind they have the power to carry out emergency works to make the wall safe should it need it and then to recharge the owners (you and your neighbor) the cost... ie they will either pull it down most likely, or shaw it up if they deem it to be dangerous and in immediate risk of collapse. Although this sounds like it may be your only option if they are refusing to talk to you about it unless you go down the lines of consulting a solicitor which will probably end up costing you more than replacing the wall!!

Worth checking with your house insurance as you may find that you are covered for the repairs under this...

 

[KumquatMay]

Thanks, that's really helpful.

I think even by eyeballing it it's obvious that it needs replacing - there is a vertical concrete post behind it and there's a good couple of inches gap between the post and the wall where the wall is leaning. The rest of the walls along the row have been rebuilt so when you stand next to one of those and look down the alley you can see it leaning out.

Good idea about getting the council involved. I think I will write the neighbours explaining why it's so important and that the alternative is a) either it falls down and has to be rebuilt anyway, potentially causing death or serious injury or b) the council get involved which will be alot more expensive (since we will end up not only paying for the repairs but probably their time and admin too).

I spoke to my insurers who have said only accidental damage is covered (this counts as wear and tear) although I will suggest this to the neighbours.

Thanks for your help!

 

[Griff500]

It may be either subsidence, tree root damage possibly a broken drain, I have doubt very much that its is 'wear and tear', more like your insurance company not wanting to pay out....Ignore what they tell you check your policy wording and see what cover you have to outbuilding/external walls and structures... by the sounds of it and the fact that the rest of the street have all replace theirs I would suggest that the foundations were insufficient or the wall not thick enough for its height.. Is it retaining anything or just a standard wall? I suspect that its is a one brick thick wall (upto 1.4m height max) in which case if it is over 70mm out of plumb then it would be classed as dangerous, (100mm if its a brick and half thick). The council engineer will serve a notice on you and your neighbor (via a magistrate) under section 77 of the building act 1984 which would set out a period of time in which the works would need completing by and if not carried out they will then do it for you and charge you, or if its really bad then under section 78 or the act they can carry out such works as to make safe and once again charge you for it. If you neighbor really wont discuss then that will force them into doing something...(I would hope!)

Good luck!

 

[KumquatMay]

Thanks again for your reply - the wall is approx 1.5m x 1.8m, seems to be about two bricks deep but I'm not sure of the technical spec! I will measure the lean-out and see how far it is away from the concrete post.

I'll also take another look at the insurance policy - the rest of the street got theirs done as part of a council revamp for a nominal amount. Think the current owners at the time just weren't interested. The wall hasn't been redone since the houses were built in 1910 - not sure how long they're supposed to last for! I'll check surrounding roots etc too, although the neighbouring sections (equally as old) are not as bowed as this one.

Definitely think speaking to the council will be the next step if no luck with the neighbours - thanks very much for letting me know what the procedure will be.

Thanks again!

 

[Griff500]

A brick thick wall is 215mm thick, brick and half is approx 325mm deep... 1910 its probably out lasted its design life then lol.... You only need have concern for roots if there are trees near by (obviously! lol).... (although some species can influence foundations within 30m). You may find a word from the council engineer is enough to convince your neighbor it needs looking at but as always is probably the last resort getting the authorities involved. I take it would be a pointless exercise replacing your section of wall and tying it back into your neighbors?

Good luck hope it turns out well.

 

[joe-90]

You haven't said how tall it is. No photos. How can it be a dual responsibility if it faces a public right of way? Just rebuild your own section and let them worry about theirs. Not worth falling out over is it? If you get the council involved you need your head testing. When you sell it'll have to be declared as a dispute.

 

[Griff500]

You haven't said how tall it is.

Its the relationship between thickness and distance out of plumb which are critical, a 3 ft wall 100mm out of plumb is just as much likely to collapse as a 5ft wall 100mm out of plumb.

No photos. How can it be a dual responsibility if it faces a public right of way? Just rebuild your own section and let them worry about theirs.

Correct, although I suspect that if it fell on someone in the state that it is described the whole thing would come down and both parties would find themselves responsible should the worst happen.

Not worth falling out over is it?

Most definitely

If you get the council involved you need your head testing. When you sell it'll have to be declared as a dispute.

I would assume that the poster would do this anomalously as a 'concerned member of the public' and it would not be recorded as a dispute

 

[KumquatMay]

Joe-90

It's a shared responsibility as the wall runs across both my neighbours and my yard. It is on our land, therefore our responsibility.

As mentioned, the wall is 1.5m by 1.8m.

You're very right, we really like our neighbours and have a good relationship with them and do not want not to fall out with them. However, I am even more keen to ensure it does not fall on someone and kill them.

Unfortunately the wall is so unstable that simply dealing with our own section is not an option. It would be impossible to just remove our section since the entire thing would come down.

 

[jeds]

Go out tonight and push the wall over. Then it'll have to be sorted.

 

[IJWS15]

Joe-90

It's a shared responsibility as the wall runs across both my neighbours and my yard. It is on our land, therefore our responsibility.

I don't understand this - if it is on your land why is it your neighbour's responsibility.

I am with Joe - sort your half and refix any bricks you dislodge in their bit as you do it. At either 1.5 or 1.8 metres high you don't want to risk it falling on someone.

BTW - pushing your neighbour's wall over would be criminal damage.

 

[KumquatMay]

Yes, I was never going to push the wall over.

The reason it's a shared responsibility is that it lies equally on both our properties. Let's say it's 2m across - 1m is on our garden and 1m on theirs. We share joint responsibility for it falling on someone.

Sorting out just our side alone is impossible, all 4 builders have refused to do that. Beginning to work on our half would bring the entire wall down, which means we have to be in agreement with the neighbours about how we deal with it.

 

[jeds]

BTW - pushing your neighbour's wall over would be criminal damage.

Oh, really. And what do you think allowing a dangerous wall to fall on a child would be?

 

[IJWS15]

BTW - pushing your neighbour's wall over would be criminal damage.

Oh, really. And what do you think allowing a dangerous wall to fall on a child would be?

Likely to be manslaughter - but the OP has that risk already, why he should get his done regardless of what the neighbour does.