Rees Mogg - Grenfell victims who followed Fire Service advice lacked common sense

[breadnbutter]

How about the manufacturers who sold a product that was not fit for purpose.

well them as well, but did not the manufacturer specify the cladding was only for a certain height of a building.

 

[Ryler]

1) what are the purposes of building regulations

To keep box tickers in jobs

2) who is responsible for revising and issuing them.

Santa claus.

 

[Ryler]

Building regulations should have informed the fire brigade of all the buildings wrapped in flammable materials and then the brigade could just of updated their fire chiefs on the ground to issue the warning,,"run for your lives".

 

[JohnD]

I see the village idiot is trying his hand at comedy.

 

[Ryler]

I see the village idiot is trying his hand at comedy.

Why do you ask questions you already know the answer too?

 

[Doug99]

After the 9/11 tragedy, I have always advised my family to 'GET OUT' if they ever find themselves in a burning building.
I work in a high rise office block which has a routine whereby some floors are cleared and others are told to 'remain until advised to evacuate'.

 

[Bodd]

In the UK it is profit before people!

Your right about that.... Build it cheap.... By what ever means.......

 

[Bosswhite]

After the 9/11 tragedy, I have always advised my family to 'GET OUT' if they ever find themselves in a burning building.
I work in a high rise office block which has a routine whereby some floors are cleared and others are told to 'remain until advised to evacuate'.

As I understand it there was only one route in/out of the building, people trying to get out would hamper Firefighters loaded with bre

Well there are two issues here.

1) Who decides on the regulations.

2) Enforcement of those regulations.

Were the regulations too lax as well as the enforcement regime?

After the 9/11 tragedy, I have always advised my family to 'GET OUT' if they ever find themselves in a burning building.
I work in a high rise office block which has a routine whereby some floors are cleared and others are told to 'remain until advised to evacuate'.

As from the end of this month all London Fire and Kent Fire Engines will be equipped with Smoke Hoods, basically an updated version of the wartime Gas Mask ,( once only use) there will be 4 per Fire Engine
Would your Firm purchase extra hoods for the safety of its staff or maybe in the future there will be legislation that business`s in high rise buildings have to provide smoke masks for staff .
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-45833527

 

[Brigadier]

Would your Firm purchase extra hoods for the safety of its staff or maybe in the future there will be legislation that business`s in high rise buildings have to provide smoke masks for staff .
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-45833527

Or, just don't build high-rise buildings? (Or, just as applicably, buildings from which simple and rapid evacuation is not possible?)

 

[JohnD]

I still believe that the fundamental reason why this terrible fire was so terrible, is that the building had been wrapped in flammable materials.

This was the third fatal fire in Britain since 2009 where this had happened.

The cladding was applied to Grenfell AFTER the second fatal fire so there can be no excuse of ignorance.

Warnings were issued after the first two, and the Housing Ministers (FOUR of them) responsible for Building Regulations had received multiple letters from the Cross-Party group of MPs looking into fire safety.

None of them did anything about it.

One of them actually replied "I am not willing to disrupt the work of this department by asking that these matters are brought forward."".

 

[JohnD]

1991
Knowsley Heights, Liverpool. Fire spread from the bottom to the top of a newly overclad 11-storey block of flats, causing serious damage

2005
Scotland required the installation of sprinklers in all new blocks of flats higher than 18m

2009
Lakanal House, Camberwell. Six people killed by fire in tower block where fireproof asbestos window panels had been replaced by non-fire-safe ones. One woman died after being advised by 999 to stay and wait for rescue. A family was saved after ignoring official advice and fleeing to a balcony

2010
Shirley Towers, Southampton. Two firemen killed fighting blaze in tower block

November 2016
Grenfell Action Group warned that the block’s manager KCTMO was “playing with fire” and “only a catastrophic event will expose the ineptitude and incompetence of our landlord”. It complained that residents “have received no proper fire safety instructions”. It warned that recent tower block fires in west London had shown that the advice to stay in flats would result in “certain fatalities”

2016
The British expert architects Probyn Miers warned of the dangers of fires caused by cladding. Although nobody had been killed in Dubai, “this should not by any cause for complacency”. Nightmare scenarios envisaged included “multiple-fatality building-engulfing fires as in China”

June 2017
Grenfell Tower disaster. No sprinklers installed. Residents died after following advice to stay in their flats and wait for rescue rather than trying to escape

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...of-ignoring-lessons-from-2009-blaze-7qmrqwg6f

Well bless my soul, nobody could have foreseen that happening.

 

[motorbiking]

I agree to some degree, but flammable materials exist everywhere. It is possible to imagine a scenario where these materials could have been used without the devastation. Perhaps a fire break or packed tight to the concrete. I think you'd struggle to make an argument that people were criminally negligent, with no benefit of hind sight.

In the case of Mogg, believe him or not - he argues that he meant people would not stay put now, with the benefit of common sense and knowing what happened. At the end of the day you are the best person to know if you are in immediate peril, not some expert on the ground. Humans are funny, we often hope and pray for a miracle when faced with pending death. Its always surprised me why people line up to be shot, dig their own grave before being murdered etc. People hope someone will rescue them.

 

[Brigadier]

I agree to some degree, but flammable materials exist everywhere.

And even if not built into the structure itself, the occupiers will fill the building with them anyway.
And obstruct exits, prop doors, and the like.
Which is why, all other things being equal, the sensible course of action would probably be to engineer out the issue in the first place, by not building any further high-rises.

It is possible to imagine a scenario where these materials could have been used without the devastation. Perhaps a fire break or packed tight to the concrete.

I heard the fire start, progress, and the aftermath, live on R5L (I regularly listen to "Up all Night"). And, my immediate thought then was that the fire was spreading, chimney-like, through the space between the cladding and the building.

 

[JohnD]

I agree to some degree, but flammable materials exist everywhere.

That doesn't convince me that it is sensible to wrap a building in flammable material.

 

[JohnD]

And even if not built into the structure itself, the occupiers will fill the building with them anyway.
And obstruct exits, prop doors, and the like

That doesn't convince me that it is sensible to wrap a building in flammable material.