Safe Isolation Dilemmas.

[JohnW2]

It's been known.

Indeed, but I strongly suspect that one is far more likely to fall down the stairs, or off a ladder, and break one's neck than to be electrocuted by unexpected electricity 'borrowed' from a neighbour!

Kind Regards, John.

 

[securespark]

Thanks guys.

Using the isolation sequence:

Identify

Isolate

Lock-off

Prove 2 pole device

Test LN NE LE

Prove 2 pole device again

You cannot safely isolate in those scenarios.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

You cannot safely isolate in those scenarios.

No you can't, so as I see it you have 2 choices.

1. Walk away.

2.

As far as I can see you're hosed - short of physically tracing the cable back to the supply, all you can do is best chance at having isolated (e.g. main switch), imperfect verification (e.g. voltstick as you or assistant turn it on and off a few times), followed by PPE-ing up and chopping it.

 

[securespark]

With apologies to Ban (who is not constrained by strict H & S and company policies regarding safe isolation), what would other sparks here do?

Indeed, if you have come across this scenario in your workplace, how did you deal with the situation?

 

[JohnW2]

With apologies to Ban (who is not constrained by strict H & S and company policies regarding safe isolation), what would other sparks here do?

Not being an electrician I cannot answer that question as phrased, but I think that BAS has more-or-less outlined the only types of options which exist, whether one is contsrained by such policies/regs or not. Since, as we all agree, the scenarios you present do not permit the normal safe isolation procedures to be followed to the word/letter, you have only two choices - (1) walk away from the job (a.k.a. refuse to violate the policies/regs) OR (2) on the basis of your training, knowledge and understanding, adopt a procedure which you believe is as close as is attainable to the word of the policies/regs (if necessary in consulatation with employer or HSE), and which you are personally comfortable with.

Kind Regards, John.

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

Just as a follow up to a previous post by me on this thread.
After trying a few methods of reading Voltage via clamps.
The result did come up untrustworthy even though I did mange to get reading of 230/49V values on the screen whilst powered up, when powered down the value did not fall to zero or near zero but hung around the 70-100V.
So in conclusion, ignore previous post regarding the use of clamps in safe isolation procedures.
Stick with the two probed/pole, approved voltage indicator.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Stick with the two probed/pole, approved voltage indicator.

And if you can't?

 

[JohnW2]

And if you can't?

It's not hard to imagine what many (or most) electricians (and also you/I etc.) would probably do, but I can understand the electricians not wanting to discuss that here. However, as we've both said, those who are particularly concerned about following the letter of HSE/employer's policies really have no option but to 'walk away' and refuse to violate the letter of those policies.

Kind Regards, John.

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

And if you can't?

Rubber insulated suit, gloves, boots, visor and a chainsaw!

 

[scousespark]

And if you can't?

It's not hard to imagine what many (or most) electricians (and also you/I etc.) would probably do, but I can understand the electricians not wanting to discuss that here. However, as we've both said, those who are particularly concerned about following the letter of HSE/employer's policies really have no option but to 'walk away' and refuse to violate the letter of those policies.

Kind Regards, John.[/quote

So what is it you imagine most electricians will do?

 

[JohnW2]

So what is it you imagine most electricians will do?

As I said, it's not appropriate to discuss here. However, I imagine that there are few electricians, or even knowledgeable non-electricians, who haven't ever done things which, whilst not strictly in compliance with safety guidelines/policies/regs, they judge, on the basis of their knowledge and understanding, to be adequately safe (given that it is their life and limb which are at potential risk!).

Indeed, if you want to move even further into that 'dark area', I don't doubt that there are many who have done things which they accept are potentially dangerous/unsafe - yet have judged it to be a reasonable gamble to take at the time. In fact, that happens in most walks of life, and I've certainly been guilty - as, I suspect, have most people.

After all, apart from the obligation that some have to work strictly to policies etc., it all really comes down to common sense based on a very sound understanding of the principles involved.

Kind Regards, John.

 

[Wontdothatagain]

I know many of you will not like this but this is the devise we use. It is an approved devise and if used with a proving, works fine,

http://www.ritelite.co.uk/utilities...est_lamps_proving_units/junior_testoscope.htm

 

[scousespark]

So what is it you imagine most electricians will do?

As I said, it's not appropriate to discuss here. However, I imagine that there are few electricians, or even knowledgeable non-electricians, who haven't ever done things which, whilst not strictly in compliance with safety guidelines/policies/regs, they judge, on the basis of their knowledge and understanding, to be adequately safe (given that it is their life and limb which are at potential risk!).

Indeed, if you want to move even further into that 'dark area', I don't doubt that there are many who have done things which they accept are potentially dangerous/unsafe - yet have judged it to be a reasonable gamble to take at the time. In fact, that happens in most walks of life, and I've certainly been guilty - as, I suspect, have most people.

After all, apart from the obligation that some have to work strictly to policies etc., it all really comes down to common sense based on a very sound understanding of the principles involved.

Kind Regards, John.

The decisons taken by electricians, will be based on their knowledge and experience. I would do things, that I'd never advise a diyer to do. Even those who believe they have a vast knowledge to draw upon.

Also, I'm a qualified and expereinced electrician. I don't blindly follow the instructions form the NICEIC, so I can continue working. I do so, because they provide a framework for safe practice. They tend to follow on from the training provided by the c&G.

I'm a qualified and expereineced electrician. I don't blindly follow the instructions form the NICEIC, so I can continue working. I do so, because they provide a framework for safe practice.

 

[JohnW2]

The decisons taken by electricians, will be based on their knowledge and experience. I would do things, that I'd never advise a diyer to do. Even those who believe they have a vast knowledge to draw upon.

Exactly - so presumably you understand why I did not felt it appropriate to answer in this forum (in full view of all, largely DIYers) your question about what I imagine many/most electricians (and maybe myself) would do in the situations being discussed - and, indeed, the reasons why electricians have not been volunteering that information, either. It would be irresponsible for any of us to do otherwise.

Kind Regards, John.