Selling House - Survey flagged items for concern

[lenb]

Hi all, I'm in the process of selling my house, a 1930's semi.

The buyers survey picked up a few items of concern, but in my view these are typical of the way the houses have been built. The survey also said that the value of the house was in line with what was offered.

2 builders have come to asses the items raised, one has basically quoted an extortionate amount of money to fix every item, the other has said only a couple of minor things actually need doing and will cost a matter of a hundred pounds or so.

The biggest item picked up was the windows. The original windows were replaced about 15 years ago and being a 1930s house no lintels were originally used. The replacement windows include new lintels in the wider ones, but the narrow windows & doors don't have lintels. One builder quoted to add new lintels to every window at a cost of about £9k for 9 windows and 2 doors, this didn't seem to take into account whether the work was necessary due to structural issues.

If the windows were to be replaced now then lintels would be required by default and that is fair enough, but is it reasonable for us to be expected to pay for the cost to replace every lintel even when there is no sign of movement of the brickwork?

It seems to me the surveyor has just flagged the usual issues with a 1930s house (possible damp, roof ventilation concerns & lack of lintels) and one builder has quoted to fix these, rather than actually state whether they really do need fixing in the first place.

What steps can we take to determine more detail than the survey gave in raising things which might be issues, to actually figure out whether work really needs doing. I'm concerned that builders will look at it and quote with a view to getting the work to fix the issues and not give an accurate view as to whether the work is really necessary.

Thanks in advanced.

 

[jdpjamesp]

Surely if the survey has valued the offer as reasonable then it's the buyer's problem?

 

[^woody^]

If the window openings require a lintel, then the surveyors job is to report that to his client

It would also normally be part of his job to advise the client on the consequences of the missing lintels. It may or may not be a big deal, and they may or may not want to buy a property without lintels

Its not for you to argue with his report or say what things you think need doing, because that surveyor is not working for you

It's also not for any builders to tell you what work they think needs doing or not. That will be of no concern to a buyer or the buyers surveyor

You are free to do the work requested by the buyer, or tell them to do one. It just depends if you want them to buy the house or not

Normally though, you would offer a discount based on your lowest quote

 

[lenb]

The surveyor didn't say the windows needed lintels, the wording on the report is "Report and quote required for lintels".

That seems pretty vague and one builder interpreted it as lintels need fitting, the other reporting that lintels are not necessary unless replacing the windows.

Nothing on the surveyors report was a conclusive issue, just areas of concern which needed further investigation. As far as advising on the consequences of not doing the work, without conclusively saying the work needs doing there is no way they would advise the buyer.

So it seems all the survey has done is put the fear of god into the buyers that they are going to buy a money pit, which really couldn't be further from the truth.

We now wonder how to set their minds at ease, we want them to be happy but aren't willing to knock thousands off the price because of work that doesn't need doing.

 

[SimonH2]

My limited experience, together with stories on here, is that a surveyor will flag up anything and everything - but in non-committed terms. That way, he can't be accused of demanding unnecessary work, and equally can't be accused of missing something important. Just don't get me started on the energy efficiency ratings and the way they are surveyed ...

In this case he'll almost certainly know what was/wasn't standard practice when the house was built, and was the typical problems are (or maybe aren't at all), but he's basically left no room to blame him either way.

Perhaps you should just show both quotes to the buyer and ask them if they still want the house. If they've any sense they'll realise that one builder is happy to do the expensive job, while the other is honest in saying there's hardly any problem.

 

[lenb]

Simon, thanks for the response. The buyer has seen both quotes from the builders. The quote for the work to be done at a huge cost was their builder, the response for the builder saying it didn't need doing was our builder, so we have a bit of a stand off.

The general indication I get is that the cost to fit a lintel is a few hundred pounds per window, so even with 10 windows it might come out at £3k or £4k to do the work, not £9k, that doesn't instill any confidence in me of that builders report and whether they have been honest about what actually needs to be done.

I have another builder coming to look at the lintels and see what they think, but again I have the feeling they will say it still needs doing but provide a far more realistic quote to do the work.

 

[^woody^]

I have another builder coming to look at the lintels and see what they think, but again I have the feeling they will say it still needs doing

Is this the first house you have ever sold?

A buyer relies on the professional opinion of their surveyor. That is what they have paid for, and that is what they are insured for. OK, some surveyors are crap, but that is another issue

It does not matter what your builders think - they may be correct and the surveyor may be wrong. But the whole point is that if a buyer relies on a builders opinion (with whom there is no contact or insurance) for a house purchase, then they would be mad.

What you have to deal with is what the report says. In all this you are the third party, so it's really not for you to try and convince the buyer because they have no reason to believe you over their surveyor. And it's not for you to do all the running around

You either negotiate a reduction, or agree to do the work. If you agree work, then that's a major risk for you as the buyers could pull out at any time or dispute the work afterwards

The dangers of house purchases are numpty buyers and surveyors. You seem to have both, so unless you can see an early outcome, it may be best to cut your losses and put it back on the market

 

[tony1851]

If the windows were replaced 15 years ago, and there are no problems, what is all the fuss about?
Do the windows need lintels or not? - the surveyor should know. Instead he ducks the issue, hands the problem to someone else, and gets paid for it.
In the process, your buyers are spooked.

 

[lenb]

Woody, like I said, the surveyor wouldn't commit to saying the lintels were a problem, just that a report was required so it's not a question of trusting the surveyor as they haven't given any actual issues just things for further investigation. If the surveyor had said lintels were needed, rather than their non committal answer we wouldn't have an issue and would obtain quotes and agree a reduction in price based on those quotes.

Tony, I agree exactly, I just want a straight answer as to whether lintels are required and the surveyor didn't give this. So yes, the buyers are spooked and the issue is still not resolved.

Who do we turn to in order to get a non biased view?

 

[^woody^]

What I am trying to tell you is that that survey is not for you, nothing to do with you, it is for the buyer. The surveyor does not have to commit or word his comments for your benefit - you never paid him, nor have a contract with him. That is how it works

How the report reads is for the buyer who commissioned the report, and it is then for the buyer to interpret. The wording might be non-committal for you, but it is up to the buyer to discuss the relevance of any comments with their surveyor - ie is the lack of lintels significant for their purchase

You should not even have been given a copy

So it is not for you to interpret, to get builders around to interpret, or comment, as it will all come to nothing

If you want a definitive comment, then you should instruct your own survey

 

[lenb]

The buyers offered for us to have a copy of the survey and to get a builder to provide a further report on their survey which frankly has been as useful as a chocolate teapot. Not one of the things raised on the survey was a definitive issue, just things which could be a problem.

If it was down purely to the buyers interpretation to a survey then buyers everywhere would be claiming the house the are buying has all kinds of issues to get money off the price.

So I'll tell you what, let's just knock 11k off the price because their survey raises things which might be an issue and the buyers have interpreted that as the house will fall down unless 11k is knocked off it.

Or better still, why don't we get someone who knows what they are talking about to tell us if there actually is a problem so we can figure out what to do next. I don't feel the buyers are being unreasonable, they have just been spooked at seeing an 11k quote as a result of a poor surveyor and a builder who looks to be taking advantage.

Right I'm off to interpret the survey I had done on the house I'm buying, I feel some subsidence coming on and a hefty discount.

 

[SimonH2]

While the surveyor does not have a contract with the OP, he does have a duty of care to anyone that could be affected by his work. If he knows whether lintels should be there of not, why is he afraid to write his report in a manner which gives a bit more clue. Eg, consider the following two versions :
a) There are no lintels, this is normal for this type/age of property and problems are rare, but further investigation is recommended.
b) There are no lintels, remedial work is frequently necessary.

If he doesn't know which is the case, then there's an argument that he's not qualified to be doing the survey. If he does know then he has failed in his duty of care (either to the seller (1) or to the buyer (2)) by causing all this aggravation.

You can't blame the buyers, they probably know nothing about buildings other than "it's a pile of bricks" and so have to go on what they are told by the professionals they employ - that's why cowboy builders/plumbers/electricians/etc have a market.

As to a way forward, I can see two things you might consider :
1) Deal with the issue. See if the buyers will agree to a third party professional reporting on the issue. I assume the professional body for surveyors is the RICS (are there any other bodies ?). Someone will have to pay, but if the report says "no problem" then it's somewhat cheaper than paying £11k for work that isn't needed. If there is a problem, then you'll know what it is and how big it is.

2) If you consider the original report was unreasonably vague (it sounds like it to me) then presumably he is in a professional body. It's up to you whether you write and ask them if they consider such a vague statement met his duty of care to both buyer and seller.


Or, have you actually tried speaking to the surveyor ? Although he has no contract with you, if he is a professional then (to a point) he shouldn't mind discussing the report. When I bought my house, the report mentioned the cracks in the rendering with a recommendation to seal them. What he didn't say was the cause - which spooked insurance companies while shopping for quotes. When I phoned him, he was able to tell me that it's due to shrinkage and is normal for the materials used - which makes quite a difference !

 

[^woody^]

You will probably find that the surveyor has explicitly excluded any rights and benefits to third parties on the first page. He has no duty to the OP/seller

It may also be unprofessional to engage with the third party homeowner instead of his client

 

[rjm2k]

Bear in mind that your buyers may be trying it on to get a reduction, if the original survey said you need a report then I would tell your buyers to get a proper structural report from a qualified person at their cost, not just opinion from a mate who is a builder and would be looking to make more money by doing the work.

If the house is still standing after all this time, and your neighbours houses are still standing and have the same setup then it can hardly be a problem can it?

At the end of the day, it's entirely upto you, if your buyer tries to insist on a reduction in price and you can't afford or are unwilling to do so then there's not much you can do about it.

Time to get tough and stand your ground.

 

[maltaron]

The thing that is being forgotten is that it is currently a buyers market. The buyer is angling for a discount, you either negotiate for the best price you can get or pull out.