As I recently sort-of asked, what if it is an item (which when connected to the mains would be 'finished goods') that is not supplied with any sort of lead? Is that legal?
Kind Regards, John
Selling without kettle lead?
- Thread starter PerlW90
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Kind Regards, John
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No. But it would help if you said what it is, so that we don't start off talking about kettles and mean power supplies. 
Is this intended to be a consumer product?
Is this intended to be a consumer product?
Is that a response to my question?No. But it would help if you said what it is, so that we don't start off talking about kettles and mean power supplies.
If so, then, yes, I would have though that I am talking about 'consumer products' - although I don't know for sure what the legal definition of that is (see below).
I've given one example - ovens. It seems to be far from unknown for them to be supplied without any lead, even if they could be supplied via a BS1363 plug/socket - leaving the purchaser to decide whether to connect a lead and plug or hardwire it.
What, as above, I'm not sure about is whether selling it without a lead means that it is no longer a 'consumer product'.
Kind Regards, John
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Its a good example and off the top of my head I don't know why an oven is any different to a microwave. Is it because they are over 13A?
Well, I've had a closer comb through the regulations. I can't see any reference to 'finished goods' or similar in them (but please correct me if I'm wrong). There seem to be two main parts: Part one dealing with the mains plug/mains socket area, and part two directed towards certain electrical 'appliances'. It seems that part one does not apply here, since we are talking about not providing a plug or even a cable at all. So we are left with part two, where it is stated that anything that meets one of four definitions of appliances (with some exceptions) must be "correctly fitted with a standard plug":
"(i)equipment which is fitted with a flexible cable or cord, is designed to be connected to a socket conforming to BS 1363 by means of that flexible cable or cord and a plug and is ordinarily intended to be so connected directly without the use of a cable connector; or
(ii)a flexible cable or cord which is connected to a portable socket or portable sockets and is designed to be connected to a socket conforming to BS 1363 by means of a plug; or
(iii)a flexible cable or cord which is designed to be connected to electrical equipment by means of an appliance coupler and to connect that electrical equipment to a socket conforming to BS 1363 by means of a plug; or
(iv)a flexible cable or cord which is designed to be connected by means of a cable connector to a flexible cable or cord fitted to electrical equipment, and which is intended to connect that electrical equipment to a socket conforming to BS 1363 by means of a plug;"
The last three are types of cable so we can exclude them in this case. To qualify for (i), the equipment must be fitted with a flexible cable or cord, and be designed to be connected to a standard UK plug outlet. By my reading, this means that the item I'm considering does not qualify, because it is not actually fitted with a flexible cable or cord - only a port by which to connect one. It seems to me that this regulation is directed towards what JohnW2 was talking about, i.e. electrics that are supposed to plug into a mains socket but used to be sold with a flexible cable hanging out of them with no plug attached to it. These regulations made that illegal because, simply by virtue of having a flexible cord attached to them (with or without a plug on it) and being intended to be plugged into a mains socket, they would qualify under part (i).
It seems to me that the detachable cord itself (the kettle lead) would actually be the thing that is the qualifying appliance, according to (iii), since it is a flexible cord that connects to the electrical equipment at one end by what they call an 'appliance coupler' (the coupling of kettle plug and kettle socket qualifies for this as set out in 3c) and connects to a standard UK mains plug at the other end.
What does anyone think of this reading?
"(i)equipment which is fitted with a flexible cable or cord, is designed to be connected to a socket conforming to BS 1363 by means of that flexible cable or cord and a plug and is ordinarily intended to be so connected directly without the use of a cable connector; or
(ii)a flexible cable or cord which is connected to a portable socket or portable sockets and is designed to be connected to a socket conforming to BS 1363 by means of a plug; or
(iii)a flexible cable or cord which is designed to be connected to electrical equipment by means of an appliance coupler and to connect that electrical equipment to a socket conforming to BS 1363 by means of a plug; or
(iv)a flexible cable or cord which is designed to be connected by means of a cable connector to a flexible cable or cord fitted to electrical equipment, and which is intended to connect that electrical equipment to a socket conforming to BS 1363 by means of a plug;"
The last three are types of cable so we can exclude them in this case. To qualify for (i), the equipment must be fitted with a flexible cable or cord, and be designed to be connected to a standard UK plug outlet. By my reading, this means that the item I'm considering does not qualify, because it is not actually fitted with a flexible cable or cord - only a port by which to connect one. It seems to me that this regulation is directed towards what JohnW2 was talking about, i.e. electrics that are supposed to plug into a mains socket but used to be sold with a flexible cable hanging out of them with no plug attached to it. These regulations made that illegal because, simply by virtue of having a flexible cord attached to them (with or without a plug on it) and being intended to be plugged into a mains socket, they would qualify under part (i).
It seems to me that the detachable cord itself (the kettle lead) would actually be the thing that is the qualifying appliance, according to (iii), since it is a flexible cord that connects to the electrical equipment at one end by what they call an 'appliance coupler' (the coupling of kettle plug and kettle socket qualifies for this as set out in 3c) and connects to a standard UK mains plug at the other end.
What does anyone think of this reading?
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I'm talking about ovens which require less than 13A. If a 13A plug would not be an adequate/acceptable means of supplying it, it would not only be ridiculous but also frankly dangerous if it were supplied with a 13A plug connected!
I'm pretty sure that I've also seen 'built-in' microwaves which are sold without any lead at all.
Kind Regards, John
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The regs don't apply to anything that has a higher rating.
Your interpretation seems very reasonable, and essentially corresponds to what I said on the basis of 'common sense', without specific knowledge of the law.
That common sense would suggest (to me) that ...
(1)... if an item comes with an attached (wired to item) cable, and is suitable for use with a BS1363 plug, then there must be a BS1363 plug attached to the cable
(2)... if there is no cable/lead at all, then clearly cannot be a requirement for a plug to be fitted, but there remains the question of whether it is legal to supply an item without any lead IF it would be suitable for use with a BS1363 plug.
(3)... if, as in the case we're discussing, there is some sort of (male) 'input connector/socket' on the item, I would not personally have expected there to be any legal requirement to supply a suitable lead (that would plug into that 'input connector', with a BS1363 plug on the other end) - since there would be no danger in the absence of that lead (the item simply could not be used!).
(4)... as you say/imply, IF a lead is supplied which connects to some sort of 'input connector/socket' on the item, then one would logically expect that there would be a legal requirement for there to be a BS1363 plug on the other end.
(5)... If an item is NOT suitable for use with a BS1363 plug (needs more than 13A), then I'm not clear as to whether or not it would be legal to sell it with a connected cable (with the end being 'bare', for hard wiring). In practice, I think such items are usually sold without any cable/lead
Kind Regards, John
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As I said, they couldn't - since one could not 'require' attachment of a "13A" BS1363 plug to an item which required more than 13A!
The example I gave related to ovens and microwaves which could be supplied via a BS1363 plug (i.e. don't require more than a 13A supply), but might also be hardwired.,
Kind Regards, John
I don't see how it can be illegal to sell a second-hand anything as long as it is correctly described.
It might be a good idea as I have two working kettles and several bases from defunct previous ones.
Anyone want to buy one?
It might be a good idea as I have two working kettles and several bases from defunct previous ones.
Anyone want to buy one?
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Yes it does depend how you describe it and if you are a retailer or not.
Would you read this as contradicting my reading of the regs?
Yes, accurate description essential, I bought a car with no doors, once - bargain.
I couldn't get in it.
I couldn't get in it.
That may well be the case if it's a 'private' sale (although I'm not sure what the legal situation would be if you "correctly described" it as, say, 'very dangerous'!).
However, I think the situation is probably different for a retailer, since all the legislation we've been discussing then comes to bear (and I have a feeling that it doesn't distinguish between new and second-hand items sold to the public by a retailer).
Kind Regards, John
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