Shower Tray Upstand or Not

[Snoops]

Hi,
I am about to start tiling my bathroom floors and walls including retiling the shower area. I have got all the old tiles from my shower and am wanting to get a new riser shower tray now.
Am wondering if people recommend getting a tray with an upstand? Or would it be better to tile behind and under the shower tray & silicon in place? Am going to prepare the shower walls with BAL WP1.
Cheers

 

[Softus]

You need to get the tray that matches whatever enclosure you're getting, but the upstand has the advantage that you can tile down over it, giving an ever better water seal than with a tray without one.

You could tile down onto the upstand, but this would be more difficult to engineer in terms of getting the finished tile surface to align with the upstand so that you can seal the join. Conversely, this method has the advantage that you might just possibly be able to replace the tray without any retiling.

Personally I would never tile behind the upstand - that's begging for trouble. You'd need to avoid even the slightest defect in the seal between front of tile and rear of upstand.

 

[Snoops]

Cheers for the quick reply Softus. Bit of noob to this shower fitting lark so sorry if this is a dum question.
The alcove I am fitting the shower in is about 810mm wide, plan on tiling (using 600*900mm poscelain tiles 10mm thick) on three sides after fitting the tray. Have seen a couple of coram trays, with upstands but they all seem to be the wrong size to fit the gap (818mm or 768mm wide). Would rather not have to recess into the wall. So can I buy a tray without an upstand and then either buy the upstand seperately or using something else?
Cheers

 

[Softus]

Would rather not have to recess into the wall.

Just curious - why not? What's the wall made of?

So can I buy a tray without an upstand and then either buy the upstand seperately or using something else?

If you can get one without, to fit your alcove, then I'd leave out the upstand.

Tile down to the tray, spacing them off with 2mm spacers, make sure the gap is scrupulously clean and dry before you silicone (after grouting), and use the best quality sanitary silicone sealant that can lay your hands on (which might cost you an extra £3) - it won't leak.

 

[Snoops]

Wall is just the backing board stuff so didnt want to start digging 6mm out of it either side, as probably get messy, I'm only a newb so seems a bit risky . To get a better seal would it be worth using an 'L' shaped bit of plastic, to act as upstand and siliconing the tray before tiling. If not is there anything I will be able to put between wall and tray gap (about 4mm each side) to ensure good seal.
Want to get best seal as possible, as the old shower tray, 800mm rectangle w/o upstand, was leaking from the gap between wall and tray. They had just put a bit of thin wood in gap and siliconed over.
Cheers for all your help

 

[Softus]

Hm. I need to have a recap. Tell me if I've got anything wrong here...

The dimensions for the various parts of the installation of your proposed are as follows:

Alcove : 810mm
Tray : 768mm
Adhesive thickness : 3mm (per tiled wall)

So, the gap between the back face of the tiles and the outside edge of the tray would be 18mm. This is bigger than the 10mm tile thickness that you're proposing.

The old tray was 800mm, leaving a gap of only 2mm - easily taken up by the tile, or with extra adhesive, but I don't see how you're going to make a 768mm tray fit, without pannelling the walls that is.

Surely you need to select a better fitting tray? If it doesn't have an upstand then it doesn't matter - most of the ones that I install don't have one I don't get leaks.

And I really don't understand this statement:

... the old shower tray, 800mm rectangle w/o upstand, was leaking from the gap between wall and tray.

The gap between wall and tray is never exposed to water, so do you mean between the tiles and the tray? If so, then make sure you seal it properly (i.e. using the method suggested above).

 

[bobapcoed]

Just gone through this. Initially plumber didn't recess upstand, tiler said it had to be recessed (flush with wall) then he would tile down over it. Big advantage is that if the silicone seal fails water will still not run down wall downstairs. Also, if not recessed, will the shower enclosure fit properly. If only 6mm recess required on stud wall, should be ok. Any more and the back of the tray will hit the wood, and you'll be half in and half out. Check depth of plasterboard to stud with a thin screwdriver just above floor level. Also for firm bed need plywood and wet mix sand and cement, unless it's acrylic.

 

[Snoops]

Cheers for all the help guys. Sorry about previous messages if confusing (had a sleepless night thinking about how I was to tackle the job - sad I know!)

Just to recap Alcove width is 810mm and I had three choices:
-Use 800mm tray with upstand (ext. width 818mm) and recess wall 4mm either side. = Don't really want to start recessing in wall as it seems a bit of a tricky job to get perfect.
- Use 760mm tray with upstand (ext. width 778 mm) and tile from floor to ceiling would leave gap of about 4mm between upstand and front of tiles which would be siliconed in. (As per Softus doesn't seem to bright an idea.
- Use 800mm tray w/o upstands and tile to top of tray, would leave 4mm gap either side b/w wall and tray.

Think after all your comments I am going to go with the latter one and fill 4mm gap with filler then silicone over (before tiling down to top of tray) was also going to fit these 'seala' strips I saw, they fit under tile and rest on top of tray. http://www.toppstiles.co.uk/3/frame-0products.html

Floor is cement and level so wont need to prepare floor, was just going to use a riser tray. Also guess it must be something wrong with the original seals like Softus said, I live on ground floor, but all the flats above have had similiar problems with leaky showers . The gap between the old tray and wall had been filed with a bit of old wood then tiled over, to top of tray before being siliconed in, when the silicone failed wood absorbed all the water encouraging mould.

Does this sound ok to everyone?

 

[Softus]

...had a sleepless night thinking about how I was to tackle the job...

Quite understandable - I still do the same sometimes.

Don't really want to start recessing in wall as it seems a bit of a tricky job to get perfect.

It wouldn't have to be perfect - you'll be tiling over it!

Use 800mm tray w/o upstands and tile to top of tray, would leave 4mm gap either side b/w wall and tray.

Surely the gap would be 5mm on each side? Or is the 800mm tray actually 802mm?

Think after all your comments I am going to go with the latter one and fill 4mm gap with filler

If you know that the tray isn't going to 'reach' the wall, then I suggest that you increase the wall thickness first, rather than use filler which will shrink and crack and never be waterproof anyway.

...then silicone over (before tiling down to top of tray)

There's certainly no harm in making a primary seal with silicone where the tray doesn't quite meet the wall. It's still important to leave the 2mm gap between the lowest tile and the tope of tray, and to apply silicone to this gap when you've finished making all the mess - generally I do this after the enclosure is fitted, when there's no more drilling to do.

was also going to fit these 'seala' strips I saw, they fit under tile and rest on top of tray. http://www.toppstiles.co.uk/3/frame-0products.html[/QUOTE]
Eeeuw! I don't like the idea of something "resting" on the tray that isn't stuck down - that would be inviting trouble to stay at your house and feeding it a three-course dinner.

The gap between the old tray and wall had been filed with a bit of old wood then tiled over, to top of tray before being siliconed in, when the silicone failed wood absorbed all the water encouraging mould.

Hm - maybe they didn't use WBP plywood.

This next comment isn't aimed at you Snoops, but an astonishing number of people still think that using cheap silicone (e.g. £1 per tube instead of £5) is saving them money. They might as well use puff pastry if they want to avoid spending money

 

[Snoops]

Cheers again Softus, can't thank you enough. Glad I am not the only one who lays awake at night thinking about my plumbing

Alcove is 808mm wide so will leave 4mm gap, however I think this will be eaten up once I have replastered with the showerproofing kit if there is still an excessive gap I found some 2mm platic stips I can wedge in behind tile and tray also I will still do a primary seal just in case. Will also leave 4mm gap b/w tray and tiles (as this is the grouting gap I am using.)

I won't use those seala stip, seemed a bit strange to me when I saw, but guy in shop swore blind by them. But wanted to pass by you first just in case.

As for silicone, am using polycell silicone strip tape for primary seal and Unibond Kitchen and bathroom for bit b/w tile and tray. Used to build enclosures for reptiles (v. humid) and seen what happens with cheap silicone, so already know the benefits of good quality silicone.

 

[Softus]

Snoops, you're welcome. Hope it goes well.

My stepson also keeps reptiles - any tipe for reducing the stink?!

Regarding the 4mm gap, I suggest you consider reducing this to 2mm for the tile/tray gap, because it'll MUCH easier to seal and keep sealed.

Regarding the brand of sealant, I stick to (couldn't resist that one) Dow Corning 751, and I can't imagine anything better. I haven't used Unibond, but I daresay it's OK, and it sounds like you're an old hand with the silicone!