Showing their age!

[shelworthy]

Hi All, and happy new year!
My aged mother's CH system is having problems. Like her, the system is pretty ancient and not functioning too well!
It consists of - Potterton C70/21 BE or SB a floor standing gas boiler.
-Randall 3033 timer controller
-Honeywell V6057 2 port motorised valve (in 28mm)
I would think it dates back to thr 60's.

Whilst she was living in the house (she's now unfortunately in a nursing home) the system was kept going by very enterprising and resourceful British Gas engineers on a yearly plan which is no longer affordable alas. On our last visit the hot water did not materialise when demanded. (The CH system is left on "trickle" to air the house and keep frost at bay) Now in the past, the motorised valve has "buzzed" as it has ratcheted over, but no longer.So , I had quick look at the valve ,as you do, by removing the motor unit from it's backing plate. The valve seemed free enough i.e. turned freely, although the valve body had a slight weep from behind the round backing plate.There might have been water ingress to the motor but I didn't really have the tools with me to look further.Anyway to cut a long story short, when I put the motor unit back I found that I had instigated a strange set of additional symptoms..you know the sort that make you ask yourself " why did I start down this path?"
Now, the boiler fires up irrespective of the controller settings and stays on until you switch the electricity off at the FCU. when it goes to pilot. The programmer can be set on .....constant/timed/off...yes even off! and this is for both CH and DHW although I still don't think the water gets hot as I didn't have any more time to investigate .( the immersion had been on as well)
Anyway, can anyone shed any light on this problem. I'm wondering if I have inadvertently pulled a wire from the motor unit..There are 3 cables entering the unit. I was ever so careful...honest! Could the controller have just given up the ghost at this point, or could a seized motor/ valve cause such malfunctions.
One thing I've just remembered is that if you ask for DHW only, the boiler reverts to pilot after a few seconds, that was before my "investigation"
If the motor and/or valve are at fault , are the modern equivalents a direct replacement? I notice that the existing honeywell unit has no external operating lever.
Anyway , sorry for the long post, hope somebody can suggest ways forward. I'm not due to visit again for a couple of weeks so I hope there will be no freezing spells meanwhile!
Regards,
S.

 

[Agile]

You say this was on a BG plan but this is "no longer affordable".

Since the house is presumably worth at least £100,000 it seems very poor economy to let the heating system fail.

Surely someone is due to inherit this houcse one day and surely that person can afford £4 per week to keep the heating maintained?

If funds are so tight then why not modernise and let the house or just sell it now.

Tony

 

[shelworthy]

Dear Tony,
Thanks for your (unhelpful) comment. Yes, on the surface it does look like a " false economy" but as you don't know any of the circumstances leading up to it, I assure you it was a sensible decision at the time. In retrospect, perhaps not.
If you or anyone else have some actual advice with regard to the actual problems outlined originally, I would be very appreciative.
S.

 

[Agile]

I dont see how I can give you any specific advice when I have not seen the system. There can be all sorts of faults.

Its clearly old and in poor condition!

The only usual solution would be to get it on a maintenance contract or have a competent heating engineer in to assess it and carry out whatever repairs are needed.

It sounds as if it might need about £200 or more spent!

Tony

 

[Softus]

shelworthy, if the two-port valve turns relatively freely when you remove the actuator head, then the likelihood (based on commonly occurring faults) is that the head is faulty.

If it were my own house then I'd replace the V6057 with a 28mm V4043.

If you engage a professional to do the work then the bill could easily be around £200, as Agile has indicated, including labour, valve, and a dose of inhibitor.

The job is not technically difficult, but can expose latent problems such as a cold feed blockage, so you need to be prepared for the job to grow in scope.

If you want to undertake the work yourself, then just post again and help will be available.

 

[shelworthy]

Hi Softus,
Thanks for that. The more research I do into this ,the more I suspect the motorised part of the valve. Yes it looks like a V4043 is the likely candidate though a couple of issues come to mind.
I hope I would be swapping like with like (or as near as poss)
I'm assuming the valve is a "normally closed" type????
Also I'm speculating whether the valve body is a 28mm or indeed the old 3/4 size as the system dates back to the mid sixties.
( the trouble is I can't readily try out any fresh ideas as I'm sitting 120 miles away and not due another visit for a couple of weeks) I hope ,ideally just to land up there , drain down and fit the correct new valve without any great hassle.....I know, famous last words! I've e-mailed Honeywell for their input, but no reply as yet.
I'm still not clear why the boiler is in continuous firing mode despite being "off" at the programmer. Is it perhaps something to do with a micro switch in the head unit affecting feedback to the controller. Bugg..red if I know!
Anyway ,thanks again, hope you can help further.
S.

 

[Softus]

I'm assuming the valve is a "normally closed" type?

V4043H1056 - 22mm normally closed
V4043H1106 - 28mm normally closed
V4043B1257 - 22mm normally open
V4043B1265 - 28mm normally open

Also I'm speculating whether the valve body is a 28mm or indeed the old 3/4 size as the system dates back to the mid sixties.

The nearest imperial size to 28mmm is 1", not 3/4".

I'm still not clear why the boiler is in continuous firing mode despite being "off" at the programmer.

A common cause is that the valve actuator is stuck in the open position, thus closing the microswitch that provides power to the boiler.

Is it perhaps something to do with a micro switch in the head unit affecting feedback to the controller.

No, not feedback - see above.

 

[shelworthy]

Hi again Softus,
Many thanks again for your considered help with this, I really do appreciate the time and effort that you've put in....I notice you were up late when you posted as well! As you suggest , it looks more and more like the head unit on the motorised valve at fault. If only I knew exactly which replacement to order!!! Presumably you can't tell whether the valve is of the open or closed type in situ(as it doesn't work) The writing on the original valve is Honeywell V6057 A 1000.. I don't know if there is a clue there . Hopefully if Honeywell e-mail me back they might tell me..but there again! Theoretically I suppose it could take four attemps to get it right! i.e. is it metric/BSP, is it normally closed/open.?perm any two from four! Roll on the warmer weather!
Regards,
S.

 

[Softus]

If only I knew exactly which replacement to order!!! Presumably you can't tell whether the valve is of the open or closed type in situ(as it doesn't work)

Unless you have a solid fuel boiler the overwhelming likelihood is that it's normally closed.

The writing on the original valve is Honeywell V6057 A 1000. I don't know if there is a clue there . Hopefully if Honeywell e-mail me back they might tell me..but there again!

I doubt that it will matter much, because I'd plan for finding that the pipework needs modiying

Theoretically I suppose it could take four attemps to get it right!

In your position I'd do it in one visit. I'd go to my local merchant beforehand and negotiate to buy one V4043H1056 and one V4043H1106 on a use-or-return basis.

I'd then take along to the job all options that would allow me to modify 22mm and 28mm pipework. If it's 1" pipe then you can always coax a 28mm olive onto it, but be aware that 3/4" pipe requires 3/4 olives.

 

[shelworthy]

Hi Softus,
Again, thanks for your replies.The original valve is definitely fitted into 28mm (or possibly its imperial equivalent which you say is 1"). as this is the size of the pipes (4 I think but without being able to check...!)from the back of the Potterton. I remember after the valve there is a reducer to 22mm (or possibly 3/4") before it disappears through the wall!
So, if I buy a V4043H1106 (closed) plus a selection of olives (28mm & 1") and some emery paper! ....you reckon I could be in with a fighting chance?
Best regards,
S.

 

[doitall]

Start again

the V4043H 1056 22mm with end switch

the V4043H 1106 28mm with end switch

The wiring is slightly different one less wire I think.