Skirting - What type of nail gun - hire or buy?

[Sprogginz]

I'm just about ready to start a project putting skirting and architrave upstairs. I really don't want the hassle of using screws and trying to hammer masonry nails in again.

As far as I can tell, all the walls are breeze block and not particular straight as the house is over 50 years old so they certainly just can't be glued on.
What type of nail gun is needed to do this kind of job? I'm assumming I'll need to hire one as the ones under £100 won't do it?

Thanks very much.

 

[foxhole]

Wrong choice

 

[lynchnigel]

Architrave doesn't really need a nail gum or screws, for such a job i would mark the set back around the door frame where you are going to afix the architrave and you could glue and pin into the timber door frame/casing.

Skirting wise you could try a mix of screws and no nails type adhesive where the wall isnt straight and needs pulling in use screws.

 

[Sprogginz]

Architrave doesn't really need a nail gum or screws, for such a job i would mark the set back around the door frame where you are going to afix the architrave and you could glue and pin into the timber door frame/casing.

Skirting wise you could try a mix of screws and no nails type adhesive where the wall isnt straight and needs pulling in use screws.

Thanks, I can't remember why I didn't use pins last time for the architrave. Maybe the walls were too uneven, therefore, felt I had to secure them in the middle thus using masonry nails instead. I'll try again and see what happens.

Slightly off topic, would you paint the skirting first before attaching to the wall?
I know you still have to fill in and paint the screw holes afterwards but wouldn't it blend in nicely?
Then of course is the caulking but does that need to be painted afterwards.
Again, my thinking is that it would save time instead of having to mask everything beforehand. Also painting horizontally instead of vertically surely must give better results?

Thanks again.

 

[lynchnigel]

For the architrave - glue and fine pins or pre drill the architrave because you would be fixing near to the edge chance of it splitting. The architrave is only set back 5-10mm so you should have timber to fix to.

Yep makes it easier priming it first before fixing it, prime it both sides, should help stabilise it's well. Not sure about painting it and finishing it first.

 

[Gerrydelasel]

Thanks, I can't remember why I didn't use pins last time for the architrave. Maybe the walls were too uneven, therefore, felt I had to secure them in the middle thus using masonry nails instead. I'll try again and see what happens.

Slightly off topic, would you paint the skirting first before attaching to the wall?
I know you still have to fill in and paint the screw holes afterwards but wouldn't it blend in nicely?
Then of course is the caulking but does that need to be painted afterwards.
Again, my thinking is that it would save time instead of having to mask everything beforehand. Also painting horizontally instead of vertically surely must give better results?

Thanks again.

Skirting -use expanding foam (use weights or nail scrapwood to the floor to stop it moving while it dries). You can use a screw here and there if you really think you need it, but there is no need to use screws everywhere in modern times.
Architrave -glue with no more nails and a few panel pins into the door frame where necessary. Always add wood glue to the mitres or they will open up as the wood shrinks.
Wherever possible, paint first, then fit. Touch up afterwards.

 

[Deleted member 174758]

The trade tend to prime skirtings before doing the cutting and fixing, install architraves, then skirtings, sand out any discrepancies (such as architrave joints which aren't flat or scarfed joints on long runs of skirting), then fill and sand any pin holes, etc before glossing.

We invariably use 2nd fix (16 gauge) nailers and grip adhesives for the skirtings and 2nd fix nailers for the architraves with a 2-part mitre adhesive such as Mitre Mate, etc being used to glue the architrave mitres (bonds in seconds, not hours like PVA). Once the grip adhesive has gone off the gaps to the wall are dealt wiith by acrylic decorators caulk. The pins are really only used to hold the skirtings in place whilst the grip adhesive goes off (12 to 24 hours), nothing more, For DIY work the 2nd fix nailer and pins can be replaced by what we used before the advent of guns - hammer, small oval nails (or lost head nails/panel pins for architraves) and a nail set (to punch nail heads under), but TBH foam is probably a lot easier

On some jobs these days we use low expansion foam instead of grip adhesive for skirtings - generally where we need to fix to metal-frame studwork walls - but it is slightly more expensive, plus a bit slower to use, and if you are trimming out an office complex or a block of flat the preference is still for grip adhesive on cost grounds

The reason why you prime timber before fixing is to protect the backs and bottoms but it also makes the decorator's job faster.

The reasons why you gloss skirting after installation, particularly if you are pinning, are many: cutting freshly glossed materials in a mitre saw or even a manual mitre box risks damaging the paintwork (both from contact with the fences as well as chipping or pulling where the saw cut is made) as well as risking transferring paint onto your equipment; same goes for making any scribed ends; when installing skirting with pins or nails they leave holes which needs to be filled, sanded and then painted in - with gloss paint that may mean a large repair area because a dob of gloss applied a few days after the original paint always shows

Architraves really have to be pinned in place, not glued, unless you want them to fall off! The standard approach is to mark-out your reveals (set-backs) - generally 5 to 10mm depending on the rest of the house and the size of your hinge knuckles. First you cut the header to size with the two end mitres and pin that in place, then measure from the top of the architrave head to the floor on both sides and cut the two legs about 5mm oversize with the end mitres cut. The legs are them offered-in upside down (point to the floor) so that an exact fit from floor to top edge of the head is marked and the legs can be trimmed, if needs be with a hand saw. The mitre faces are then coated with mitre glue, the leg is moved into place and held whilst the mitre joint sets (10 to 15 seconds). That leg can then be nailed/pinned to the door casing and any nail heads punched under with the hammer and nail set. Any holes are filled and sanded, and if the mitre joint at the top isn't perfectly flat, and/or you have any glue squeeze out, the mitre is also sanded flat. So a lot of handling.

We do install pre-finished materials from time to time - it's generally 2-pack lacquered material which has been properly cured and which when fully cured is a lot tougher than gloss paint making that feasible, but even there we still pin the architraves, either with 18 gauge pins or 23 gauge ones, holes being filled with coloured wax

So a professional would install, fill, sand and paint - produces a better result than trying to touch-up afterwards

As for masking, you'll never see a professional decorator doing that on standard skirtings or architraves - to get a decent line they use something called an angled cutting brush. A decorator I worked with quite recently recommended this very affordable ProDec one (£2.81) from Toolstation. together with a set of the ProDec synthetic brushes (12 brushes at £16.47). I used them on some snagging work and for both emulsion and oil-n=based gloss they were surprisingly good - certainly better than any cheap brushes I've had in the past

 

[Sprogginz]

The trade tend to prime skirtings.....

Thank you very much for taking the time to give detailed instruction, I really appreciate it and it's very helpful/useful.

It's also interesting to know that even the trade have to adjust areas such as sanding down a mitre joint when it's not perfectly flat. I thought it was my mistakes that causes those issues.

I've used Mitre Bond, not sure if it's the same as Mitre Mate. It is fantastic but I find it sets so quickly that you only get one go at positioning the joint before it sets hard. If only it gives 10 seconds or so, maybe I'm using too much activator?

The skirting and architrave were bought already primed. I was going to cut everything first, make sure everything fits in place, pre-drill any holes, paint, then attach to the wall. I know afterwards I have to fill in screw holes and caulk but thought painting over those would seamlessly blend in with the original coat, however, because of what you said I'm not so sure as it will be gloss.

The skirting is MDF and only 14.5mm which follows the uneven walls better than the 18mm pine which I guess is expected.
I'm now hoping that I don't need screws or nails (skirting only) as long as I find either a quick setting adhesive or good alternative method of keeping the skirting pressed against the wall. When you mentioned using pins to hold the skirting in place, are you only referring that to plasterboard? If I had to use fixings, it would be great to just use pins or thin masonry nails instead of screws but I've never been able to hammer them into solid wall without messing it up at some point. Maybe I was using the wrong nails?

Is there little to choose between the grab adhesives or are there some that stand out from the rest?
Gerrydelasel also mentioned the use of expanding foam but I don't understand how that works in this scenario. Does it secure the skirting better?

Finally, thanks for the brush recommendations, I think I'll get those.

 

[Deleted member 174758]

It's also interesting to know that even the trade have to adjust areas such as sanding down a mitre joint when it's not perfectly flat. I thought it was my mistakes that causes those issues.

Unfortunately they don't do Superman capes in hi-viz yellow, and it's difficult to get your knickers on over your cargo pants, so we too are only human. Obviously we try not to have to sand down, but spliced joints on walls aren't always perfect because walls are rarely perfect

I've used Mitre Bond, not sure if it's the same as Mitre Mate.

Same sort of product. It's basically a 2-part version of the familiar isocyanate glue (or superglue). You can actually buy retarder for superglue, so tjis should work with mitre adhesive althougj I have never tried it. Personally, I just do a dry fit test run and if it looks OK I go ahead. Maybe it's just practice, but I rarely have problems other than sometimes getting glue on my fingers. The amount of activator doesn't make much of a difference to how fast it sets, though

The skirting and architrave were bought already primed.

That's how a lot of it comes to us these days - but not always

I was going to cut everything first, make sure everything fits in place, pre-drill any holes, paint, then attach to the wall.

I'd get your architraves fixed on first, then measure from them. Bear in mind that, particularly with old buildings or walls that have been replastered, you may need to go round the bottoms of the walls and knock off any plaster "snots" or thick points (only at the bottom where it would be behind the skirting when fitted). The idea behind this is that you are trying to install the skirting as near yo the wall surface as you can (to reduce the width of the caulked gap) as well as so you can install your skirting as plumb as possible (which makes the job of mitreing outside corners easier as well as making any end scribes a bit easier, too). I use a hammer and an electrician's floor bolster for this (a wide cheap/old wood chisel would do) - it's never going to ve seen so it isn't about finesse. A short offcut of skirti g can help you gauge how bad the walls are

I know afterwards I have to fill in screw holes and caulk but thought painting over those would seamlessly blend in with the original coat, however, because of what you said I'm not so sure as it will be gloss.

Maybe it's me but I find that spotting in gloss paint seamlessly can be hit and miss. With some colours, like royal blue it is all but impossible. More to the point, though, is the filler you use. One-part fillers, which don't require sanding-in once they have set almost always shrink over time, revealing the nail positions - 2-pack wood filler doesn't shrink, so produces a better, more durable repair, but it can't br hand sandedand needs to be machine sanded flat (I often use a palm sander or a cordless random orbit sander). If you try sanding relatively fresh gloss paint it makes an absolute mess of your paintwork, so this is another reason why we prime - fit - fill/repair - gloss.

I'm now hoping that I don't need screws or nails (skirting only) as long as I find either a quick setting adhesive or good alternative method of keeping the skirting pressed against the wall.

If you want speed then low expansion foam is the best way to go. Standard grip adhesives all take 12 to 24 hours to set, which is why we pin/nail or ug and screw skirtings - to hold everything in place whilst the adhesive sets

When you mentioned using pins to hold the skirting in place, are you only referring that to plasterboard?

Generally, yes, although a 2nd fix nailer can actually punch a 16 gauge nail into lightweight blockwork, such as Thermalites. In the absence of a nailer, sometimes you have to just bite the bullet and put a few plugs and screws just to hold things in place whilsr it all sets (less necessary with foam as it sets very quickly)

Is there little to choose between the grab adhesives or are there some that stand out from the rest?

I've most often used GripFil solvent-based (green tube) but in my experience the solvent-based ones I have had are much of a muchness (maybe I haven't tried enough), but there is one gotcha that DIYers are not normally aware of with them - in warm weather in particular these adhesives tend to skin-over quite quickly. What this means is that there is a knack to using them - you need to apply the adhesive to the wall then without delay press your skirting firmly into the adhesive and if it doesn"t seem to have grabbed you sort of shimmy it back and forth a couple of times (only 10 to 20mm) to break the skin and get a good bond. Soeed really is of the essence. Sounds a bit weird, but makes a lot of difference. Water-based products such as GripFil Solvent Free (yellow tube) are a lot easier to use (no needcgorcall that pallaver) and squeeze-out can be cleaned-up with a damp rag (making them a lot more suitable for hardwood skirtings or pre-finished work), but they aren't always readily available, they are slightly more expensive and they seem to set slower than the solvent-based stuff

Gerrydelasel also mentioned the use of expanding foam but I don't understand how that works in this scenario. Does it secure the skirting better?

I wouldn't say it's better or worse, but it can be easier for a DIYer. BTW it isn't "expanding foam" (i.e the stuff you'd use to fill a void in a wall or a gap around a soil pipe), it's "low expansion foam" or "adhesive foam", like this Soudal product from SFX. @foxhole is a great adherent to it, and I have to agree it does work

 

[Sprogginz]

Once again, thanks very much for this.

I understood what you meant about the skin-over on the GripFil type stuff, useful tip.
That said, I've just looked into the PU adhesive foam you explained and I'm hoping it's going to be a game changer for me.
Yes, originally I thought it was the usual expanding foam so couldn't understand how that would work but now I do!
I've already got one of those guns although I don't know if it'll be worth using it compared to cans that already come with a trigger.

I'm starting to sway over the to the paint after it's installed camp so I'll just have learn about cutting in and prepping properly.
All that's hopefully left now is to hop over to the Decorating & Painting forum to decide whether to use gloss or satin.

Thank you.