Those on E7 tariffs might be interested in this I came across

[Adam_151]

This is mainly aimed at @JohnW2 However others may find it useful. Recall seeing posts about that the difference in E7 rates had decreased somewhat recently.

While providing my meter readings, I came across a couple of tariffs Octopus energy do, they do a Go tariff, intended for EV owners, but as far as I can see, no restriction on who can have it

This electricity tariff features two unit rates:
A peak unit price – the price you'll be charged per unit of energy you use most of the time, between 4.30am and 12.30am. (This varies a little depending on where you are in the country, but usually hovers around 13-14p/kWh)

• An off-peak unit price – what you'll be charged per unit of energy used between 12.30 am and 4.30am. (This is 5p/kWh, no matter where you are)

And a standing charge of 25p/ day.

They also do an "Agile Octpus" with different rates for each half hour slot, known the night before, and for those who are interested in intergration, there is an API to get the data, etc.

A smart meter is required of course, but I feel this is making moves towards what the whole thing should have been about from the start, allowing pricing to fluctuate to incentivise the matching of supply and demand on the grid, rather than just telling you your kettle costs x amount to boil

 

[JohnW2]

This is mainly aimed at @JohnW2 However others may find it useful. Recall seeing posts about that the difference in E7 rates had decreased somewhat recently.

It was actually 2 years ago (April 2018) when all suppliers appreciably reduced the difference between day and night prices, dramatically so in many cases - as you can see from the graph below. A year ago I found one of the few suppliers (ESB) who were offering something more like the pre-2018 price differences, and thereby got at least half way back to where I had been a couple of years ago (again, see graph below)!

While providing my meter readings, I came across a couple of tariffs Octopus energy do, they do a Go tariff, intended for EV owners, but as far as I can see, no restriction on who can have it

Those day-night differences are certainly reminiscent of the pre-2018 situation but, of course, the cheap rate is only for 4 hours per day, possibly not enough for those with storage heaters.

They also do an "Agile Octpus" with different rates for each half hour slot, known the night before, and for those who are interested in intergration, there is an API to get the data, etc. A smart meter is required of course, but I feel this is making moves towards what the whole thing should have been about from the start, allowing pricing to fluctuate to incentivise the matching of supply and demand on the grid, rather than just telling you your kettle costs x amount to boil[/QUOTE]Indeed, that is what 'smart' meters are meant to be about, but I don't think many suppliers are using them like that yet.

Kind Regards, John

 

[SimonH2]

They have a blog post from December pointing out that the spot price had gone negative - so users on the Agile tariff were actually getting paid to use it The weather was exceedingly windy, so wind output had hit 16GW (quite rare) coinciding with the overnight lull in demand.
BUT, although it needs the "smart" meter for the multi-rate metering, this tariff does NOT use smart metering. The rates are calculated the day before and disseminated via their website/servers - and thus based on forecasts of supply & demand, not on the actual situation as the day goes on.
Real smart metering would allow the meter to disseminate via the in-home network rates for the upcoming few metering periods, updating them according to the very latest information and forecasts. Unfortunately I have a feeing that functionality isn't included - but I can't remember for certain.

 

[JohnW2]

... BUT, although it needs the "smart" meter for the multi-rate metering, this tariff does NOT use smart metering. The rates are calculated the day before and disseminated via their website/servers - and thus based on forecasts of supply & demand, not on the actual situation as the day goes on.

Is that not rather semantic? I'm not aware of anything other than what we call a 'smart' meter which can be remotely instructed to switch between than two registers, are you?

I don't deny that the theory of 'smart' meters is that they might eventually be used for even 'smarter' things, but that doesn't alter the fact that, at present, nothing less smart than a 'smart' meter could handle the sort of tariff you're discussing.

Take care.

Kind Regards, John

 

[SimonH2]

I think you missed the detail ...
One of the claimed benefits is that the meter knows what the prices are in the present and upcoming periods - and can disseminate that to connected devices so they can act on it (e.g. expensive loads only turning on when lecky is cheap). That information is (in theory at least) almost real time, in that it can be changed fairly quickly in response to changes.
The Octopus Agile tariff does not use that. They calculate the charges for tomorrow based on forecast data, and disseminate that via their own servers.
So yes, it's "half using" the smart meter facilities in that they are using the multi-register billing facility - but they aren't using the other side of the function in sending the billing data out.

 

[JohnW2]

I think you missed the detail ... One of the claimed benefits is that the meter knows what the prices are in the present and upcoming periods - and can disseminate that to connected devices so they can act on it (e.g. expensive loads only turning on when lecky is cheap). That information is (in theory at least) almost real time, in that it can be changed fairly quickly in response to changes.

No, I didn't miss that. As I wrote ..

I don't deny that the theory of 'smart' meters is that they might eventually be used for even 'smarter' things ...

... but my point was that that is way way into the future, not the least because there are no, or virtually no, 'smart appliances' to which they could talk - so it's probably going to be a good few decades before they appear, become widely available and widely deployed.

The Octopus Agile tariff does not use that. They calculate the charges for tomorrow based on forecast data, and disseminate that via their own servers. So yes, it's "half using" the smart meter facilities in that they are using the multi-register billing facility - but they aren't using the other side of the function in sending the billing data out.

Indeed. That was my point. Even now, such tariffs require multi-register meters - which in practice means so-called 'smart' ones.

Kind Regards, John

 

[SimonH2]

I think we're in violent agreement here But you did say that my distinction was purely semantic. I was pointing out that no it isn't since a "smart meter" implementation would have dynamic pricing (not just calculated the day before based on at least day ahead forecasts*), and the "smart" meter would be communicating the current and upcoming tariff information. In this example, the "smart" meter is merely a "multi-register" meter which takes no part (other than recording usage) in informing or controlling the demand.
It's not even clear whether the day ahead tariff is even pushed out to the meter.
* I suspect that like me, you'll have looked at some of the graphs on BMReports and seen how the day ahead forecast wind generation can be significantly different to the 2 day ahead (or whatever timeframes they are), and the actual outturn be significantly different again.

 

[JohnW2]

I think we're in violent agreement here But you did say that my distinction was purely semantic. I was pointing out that no it isn't since a "smart meter" implementation would have dynamic pricing (not just calculated the day before based on at least day ahead forecasts*), and the "smart" meter would be communicating the current and upcoming tariff information. In this example, the "smart" meter is merely a "multi-register" meter which takes no part (other than recording usage) in informing or controlling the demand.

Yes, I agree that we are essentially 'in violent agreement'. I still think that we are probably decades (or even 'generations') from the day at which the system as a whole will be 'smart enough' to do the sort of things you are talking about (and which many people seem to fear) - so, in that sense, suspect that these sort of discussions are fairly moot.

Kind Regards, John

 

[SimonH2]

The bits that people "don't like" (I think "fear" is the wrong word) are already here. Remote disconnect is there and able to be used, dynamic pricing is there and ready to be used (but I suspect no supplier has sorted their infrastructure out for that yet), intrusively detailed consumption logging is definitely here and being used.
It's the useful bits that are missing - i.e. the stuff that would make them a benefit for users. Dynamic indication of current and upcoming pricing (price being a proxy for supply/demand balance) via the in-home network is probably the key part to making "smart" meters do something useful - and AFAIK isn't part of the spec as rolled out
AFAIK the only useful feature that's actually rolled out is the ability to remotely re-provision a meter allowing easy conversion from pre-pay to account without a meter change. Of course, the flip side of that is that it's easy for a supplier (whether by policy or by mistake) to remotely convert someone to pre-pay.