TN-C-S supply - worth adding an earth electrode?

Oh, I don't know, then.

I read on here that TNC-S isn't necessarily PME and
PME may be only PTE (Two) or
even some/most TN-S is likely to be ME.

If there is a difference between TNC-S and PME then it must mean just PME.

I thought it was just newspapers where you shouldn't believe everything you read. :(
 
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I'm of the view that it was originally PNB that has "lost" the earth connection at the cut-out through ignorance of what it represented!

Whatever the connections between N and the CPCs at the cut-out It is quite possible the neutral is unearthed.

But if you work it out, carefully, this should not affect the operation of the customer's protective devices if all the required bonding is in place

(PNB should be treated as PME (TNCS) to all intents and purposes)
 
Fig 3.9

TN-C-S (PME) system

The supply system PEN conductor is earthed at two or more points and an earth electrode may be necessary at or near a customer installation.

Obviously I should have read that before posting but does it help?
 
Though in theory PNB should only have supplied one property which was not the case here!!
 
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You, probably, are not missing anything as you have inspected the premises because you live there and are interested - but the pipes could be in contact with the ground or through damp walls near the ground somewhere.
Fair enough. Is your middle name Bernard, I wonder? :)

... but why single out the water supply pipe which enters the house as plastic? I suspect that in a good few houses there are other things at least as likely as water supply pipes to be in contact with ground or 'damp walls near ground', so do I take it that you would seek them out and, if found, bond them?

Kind Regards, John
 
Fair enough. Is your middle name Bernard, I wonder? :)
:)

but why single out the water supply pipe
Because that's what's being discussed.

which enters the house as plastic? I suspect that in a good few houses there are other things at least as likely as water supply pipes to be in contact with ground or 'damp walls near ground', so do I take it that you would seek them out and, if found, bond them?
If they are extraneous they must be. Are you saying they shouldn't?
 
but why single out the water supply pipe
Because that's what's being discussed.
which enters the house as plastic? I suspect that in a good few houses there are other things at least as likely as water supply pipes to be in contact with ground or 'damp walls near ground', so do I take it that you would seek them out and, if found, bond them?
If they are extraneous they must be. Are you saying they shouldn't?
No, I'm not. However, as I said, I don't think that a water supply pipe (which enters the house in plastic, and is therefore not 'extraneous' by virtue of its entry) is any more likely than other things to become technically 'extraneous' by virtue of contact with a damp wall etc. but, since I've never seen anything other than pipes or structural metalwork main bonded, I rather suspect that, in general, electricians do not hunt around houses for such things!

Kind Regards, John
 
The supply system PEN conductor is earthed at two or more points and an earth electrode may be necessary at or near a customer installation.

That was always my understanding of TN-C-S (PME) - however that's based on me once being an electrical engineer a couple of decades ago, and then spending more time on HV than LV.

Though in theory PNB should only have supplied one property which was not the case here!!

The mists are clearing...

The state of the cutout suggests that the LV supply was all renewed when it became a single house, so would have been a single feed into a single property only at that time.

It would have also had a private water supply when it was built - what are the chances of a big copper pipe coming into the house? The plumber has already taken out a ton of extra (unused) copper piping that runs the length of the house, inferring that the original water supply may have been at the same end of the house as the cutout.

Given the need for an HV earth at the transformer plus the voltage gradients issue for an LV earth at that point, your PNB theory seems sound.

2 + 2 = 5? Only the DNO will be able to solve this particular puzzle...
 
Some interesting reading I also found This PDF which helped to explain.

It would seem a house holder does not have to use the earth supplied but where they do I can't see how any metal connected to the earth system will be anything other than exposed-conductive-part or an extraneous-conductive-part it would not matter if it's a water pipe supplying garden shed, a fuel oil pipe going to tank or a lump of metal hammered into the ground until such point as the DNO earth is disconnected it's not the earth electrode.

I do see the point where earth electrodes should be fitted where the voltage gradient under fault conditions will not produce a danger which is why we use pits to stop any one getting too close but there is nothing to stop anyone fitting a stand pipe in the garden using metal pipe. OK freezing could be a problem but fuel oil tanks could very easy use metal piping.

The problem would be electrolysis where the pipe could be eroded away causing a leak and as a result I would want some insulating device to stop this but I have seen many houses with copper plumbed outside taps which one would assume would some where be connected to the electrical earth.

It is pointed out the 13th Edition allowed use of a water pipe as an earth (1955) but by 1966 the 14th Edition prohibited this for new installations but did not require old installations to be upgraded. So there may still be properties using the water pipe and originally it did not require RCD protection but with water authorities changing to plastic the water pipe now would not be good enough and alternative earthing arrangements are now required.

I have only once come across a TN-C-S supply where the neutral was lost and it resulted in the 4mm² earth wire feeding my friends shed to melt due to the electrician who had wired it bonding exposed-conductive-parts and extraneous-conductive-parts which included an earth mat connected to earth bar used for a radio transmitter. Clearly the shed supply should have been TT but it did point out one of the problems when earthing extraneous-conductive-parts.

I have often wondered what would happen if any fuel pipe is earthed which could not take the current under fault conditions with a street of houses with a gas supply it would be shared between all the houses it is only when one odd house has a gas or oil supply which has been bonded and even then a 10mm diameter pipe would be well over 4mm² CSA so unlikely it would melt.

What is the big question is with a loss of the neutral/earth how long would it take before the supply was cut?

The second is what danger would it cause?

On the second with no extraneous-conductive-parts bonded there would be very little danger only with extraneous-conductive-parts bonded is there a significant risk.

So it introduce unnecessary extraneous-conductive-parts would clearly reduce safety not increase safety so I would not fit any earth rods as under fault conditions they could be dangerous. I would also want plastic pipe to any outside tap or fuel supply.

Never been involved with LPG it would be interesting to hear how that is bonded and piped to the house. That is about the only case where I can see extraneous-conductive-parts would need bonding and I just don't know how this is done.

So with the exception of a house with LPG I would not consider fitting earth rods would be better than using the DNO earth.
 
A row of houses in Castleford had small fires.
Initially the West Yorkshire Fire Service was met with a string of small fires after receiving a call shortly before 0130 BST.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-14075618

I can't find the report that refered to the cause of the fires being the theft of metal from the network. If there were metallic service pipes bonded to the METs in the houses then in the absence of the network neutral these service pipes and bonds would become the return path for those houses.

Was it the bond wires that started the fires ?. The fires were in the kitchens where one assumes the water service and its bond would most likely be located. Was the gas leak caused by high currents flowing in a bonded gas pipe.

http://www.westyorksfire.gov.uk/safety-campaigns/castleford-explosion

Gives the reason for the gas explosion as
The explosion was caused by interference with an overhead electricity line by thieves attempting to steal the copper conductor.
 
Oh, I don't know, then.

I read on here that TNC-S isn't necessarily PME and
PME may be only PTE (Two) or
even some/most TN-S is likely to be ME.

If there is a difference between TNC-S and PME then it must mean just PME.

I thought it was just newspapers where you shouldn't believe everything you read. :(

PME is TN-C-S, but TN-C-S isn't always PME.
 
PME is TN-C-S, but TN-C-S isn't always PME.
Yes, so does that mean you agree that table 54.8 does not apply to TNC-S when NOT PME?
You're presumably right. The references to Table 54.8 say nothing about TN-C-S, merely that the table is applicable "when [and presumably only when] PME conditions apply".

In fact, I'm a bit confused by all this termnology. Given the increasing feeling than what the OP has is probably meant to be a PNB supply (but possibly/probably without any earth), I am moved to wonder whether PNB (even when the earth is present at the consumer end) actually qualifies as TN-C-S at all, given that the initial 'T' appears to be absent (other than via the installation). What is the correct/conventional terminolgy?

In fact, I think this whole thread has changed. It initially appeared (at least to me) that the OP was asking whether it would be worthwhile to add an 'additional' TT rod to a (I think most of us probably assumed 'conventional') TN-C-S system - and I think most of us felt that it would achieve little, if anything. However, we are now faced with the possibility that it is a PNB supply with no earth at all, in which case the addition of an earth electrode to the installation would presumably be essential.

Kind Regards, John
 
I am moved to wonder whether PNB (even when the earth is present at the consumer end) actually qualifies as TN-C-S at all, given that the initial 'T' appears to be absent (other than via the installation). What is the correct/conventional terminolgy?

In fact, I think this whole thread has changed. It initially appeared (at least to me) that the OP was asking whether it would be worthwhile to add an 'additional' TT rod to a (I think most of us probably assumed 'conventional') TN-C-S system - and I think most of us felt that it would achieve little, if anything. However, we are now faced with the possibility that it is a PNB supply with no earth at all, in which case the addition of an earth electrode to the installation would presumably be essential.

The provision of an earth electrode is the absolute responsibility of the DNO. It does not form part of the customer's installation as it is directly connected to the neutral within the cut-out.
If this is in place the supply can and should be treated as TNCS.

As a supplimentary question, given that this is a single phase supply, what benefit does actually connecting one end of the LV winding to earth actually provide (apart from compliance with regs)?
By all accunts plently of other countries manage without
 

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