two way light switch problems

[LoveRocket]

First switchplate - Com = red, L1 = black, L2= black
Middle switchplate LH - Com = red, L1 = black, L2 = black (it doesn't matter which way round the blacks go)

So the thrid switchplate hasn't been touched at all - it is all original? But the bottom hall light is permanently on, regardless of the position of swplate 3 or swplate 2 RH?

 

[caledonia77]

First switchplate - Com = red, L1 = black, L2= black
Middle switchplate LH - Com = red, L1 = black, L2 = black (it doesn't matter which way round the blacks go)

So the thrid switchplate hasn't been touched at all - it is all original? But the bottom hall light is permanently on, regardless of the position of swplate 3 or swplate 2 RH?

Thanks - I am getting this clearer in my head and I def haven't wired it up like that yet!

Third switchplate hasn't been touched at all. It is all still original - I'd be lying to say I remember exactly what it looks like on the back but I know there are two black and two red wires - the black wires are wired into a hole each....it's the red wires I am not sure of - whether they are seperate or share a hole. (obviously I can check when I am home)

And YES the light is permanently on and cannot be switched off regardless of the position of the 3rd switch plate or 2 rh side.

 

[LoveRocket]

Right then.

The first switchplate and the LH switch on plate 2 should be wired together as I have said.
This then links the two switches and is the basis for your two-way switching circuit.
You now need to find the live feed to the switch, and the switched-live return back to the light (at switchplate two). When you have found these connect them to L1 and L2 on the LH switch on plate two.
EDIT--------------- Connect the switches as I have said and see if it works without any additional wiring - it may well do depending on the method originally used.


Now, as the bottom hall light is permanently on, you have got a live feed and its switched-live permanently connected at plate two, either through the RH switch, or by virtue of shoving two wires in to hole terminal (or 'hole' as you like to call it).

How far apart physically are these switchplates (two and three)? You may be able to identify which wire is which by gently pulling on one and seeing what moves at the other end.
Photos of the wiring at the light fittings themselves would be useful too.

I'm uncomfortable advising too much at the moment, as without being able to identify each conductor it really is too much guess work to be safe. Do you reckon you could use a multimeter (a tenner from B&Q or Halfords etc) if guided?

 

[caledonia77]

Right then.

The first switchplate and the LH switch on plate 2 should be wired together as I have said.
This then links the two switches and is the basis for your two-way switching circuit.
You now need to find the live feed to the switch, and the switched-live return back to the light (at switchplate two). When you have found these connect them to L1 and L2 on the LH switch on plate two.
EDIT--------------- Connect the switches as I have said and see if it works without any additional wiring - it may well do depending on the method originally used.


Now, as the bottom hall light is permanently on, you have got a live feed and its switched-live permanently connected at plate two, either through the RH switch, or by virtue of shoving two wires in to hole terminal (or 'hole' as you like to call it).

How far apart physically are these switchplates (two and three)? You may be able to identify which wire is which by gently pulling on one and seeing what moves at the other end.
Photos of the wiring at the light fittings themselves would be useful too.

I'm uncomfortable advising too much at the moment, as without being able to identify each conductor it really is too much guess work to be safe. Do you reckon you could use a multimeter (a tenner from B&Q or Halfords etc) if guided?

Ok so the first switchplate and LH side of main switch plate I have clear in my head - red in Com and black wires in the L1 and L2.

The main switchplate (2) and third switchplate are prob about 3 meteres apart and I know the wires are connected over the ceiling as the third switchplate is on the other side of the hall - and down five steps so there is not other way they can be connected.

The images I had before show a bit

View media item 24748 View media item 24749
This is second switchplate - the wires on the RH side correlate to 3rd switchplate - 2 standard black wires and 2 standard red wires

This is the third switch plate

View media item 24746
Not a very clear image I appreciate (and it's on it's side sorry!!)

I could try and get another image of the back of that switchplate when I am home this evening - as its the untouched one so wired up correctly. I could also try and get a clearer photo of switchplate 2's wires that connect through to switchplate 30 but not sure if that will tell you enough given they all look the same!

I could try the tugging gently on the wires to see if that does anything - but will they not be connected to the light in the bottom hall first as that is right in the middle of them?

I really appreciate all your help!!

As for me and a multimeter - never used one - bit nervous at he prospect...yay obviously not nervous enough with electricity judging by my muck up!!

 

[LoveRocket]

I could try the tugging gently on the wires to see if that does anything - but will they not be connected to the light in the bottom hall first as that is right in the middle of them?

That's the issue - some of them will be going from switchplate to switchplate, some of them will be coming from the light fitting(s). Without know which is which it's impossible to advise you further.

I'm afraid you either need a multimeter or an electrician.
If you get a multimeter, you can do a lot of tests 'dead', with the power off, so there's no danger. (I assume you have had the mainswitch (not just the breaker for the lights) OFF throughout your fiddling?)

 

[caledonia77]

Yes yes the mains and everything have been off whilst I have been doing this ....that much I do know!

Ok so next step is a multimeter before retorting to an electrician?

Are they idiot proof?

If so will nip by B & Q on my way home and pick one up.

 

[LoveRocket]

Are they idiot proof?

Well gas fitters use them, so yes!

Also get some 5amp terminal blocks, and a length of the cheapest wire you can find (bell wire probably) long enough to reach from one switch to the other (so you can test between the two).

 

[caledonia77]

Ok purchases made - cheapest multimeter they had, 5 m of bell wire and 5 amp blocks. All looking rather complicated right now!!

So I am off to try and sort our the first stage first - rewiring the parts of the top light before the complication of the lower light!!

I shall see how that goes...but where on earth do I begin with this other stuff???



thank you

 

[LoveRocket]

Game on.

Power off.
Get your meter and set it to the ohms scale (omega symbol). Touch the probes together and it should read close to zero.

Go to the first switch plate and remove it completely.
Put the red in to a terminal block, and the (stripped!) bell wire in the other side of the terminal block.
Go to the middle switchplate and remove it.
Put one meter probe on the other end of the (stripped!) bell wire, and the other on the red coming in from the LH conduit. If our guess is correct the meter will show zero ohms as this wire runs between switchplates one and two.
Repeat this for the blacks, and let me know how you get on.

 

[caledonia77]

Game on.

Power off.
Get your meter and set it to the ohms scale (omega symbol). Touch the probes together and it should read close to zero.

Go to the first switch plate and remove it completely.
Put the red in to a terminal block, and the (stripped!) bell wire in the other side of the terminal block.
Go to the middle switchplate and remove it.
Put one meter probe on the other end of the (stripped!) bell wire, and the other on the red coming in from the LH conduit. If our guess is correct the meter will show zero ohms as this wire runs between switchplates one and two.
Repeat this for the blacks, and let me know how you get on.

OK Game off at the moment - I am on call at work and for the first time this year - got a call out!!! Just my luck!!

And now the light has faded - and I would rather give it a try when the light is good as the first swithplate especially is in a dark corner with no natural light and by torch I don't fancy!

Seems I also have to strip the wire....I assume just a few inches at each end....surely not the whole thing?

I am on a later shift tomorrow but hopefully should still be back sharp enough to be able to give this first stage at least a try.

So this is the first switchplate and middle switchplate I am trying this with - I haven't moved onto trying the middle and third yet??

So don't go ahead with just wiring that first switch plate up as red into com and the two blacks into L1 & L2?

 

[caledonia77]

I should check - I assume the testing bit gets done with the mains still off? I mean as in once I have it all hooked up will it still manage a reading with nothing running through it? Surely not

Oh and Switchplate one and the main switchplate also run, I assume, via a light as one switch is on one side of the stair well and the other at the other end with a light slap bang in the middle....I may be wrong though!

 

[LoveRocket]

Correct.
Correct.
Correct.



Let's make sure switchplate 1 to 2 (LH) is correct before we go any further.

You may also need access to the light fittings (got a stepladder?)


Sod's law eh?

 

[LoveRocket]

I should check - I assume the testing bit gets done with the mains still off? I mean as in once I have it all hooked up will it still manage a reading with nothing running through it? Surely not

Oh and Switchplate one and the main switchplate also run, I assume, via a light as one switch is on one side of the stair well and the other at the other end with a light slap bang in the middle....I may be wrong though!

YES! DO ALL THIS WITH THE MAIN SWITCH OFF!

We are not testing for voltage, but testing for continuity (ie testing the resistance) from one end of a wire to the other.
The meter provides it's own power for this.

 

[caledonia77]

I should check - I assume the testing bit gets done with the mains still off? I mean as in once I have it all hooked up will it still manage a reading with nothing running through it? Surely not

Oh and Switchplate one and the main switchplate also run, I assume, via a light as one switch is on one side of the stair well and the other at the other end with a light slap bang in the middle....I may be wrong though!

YES! DO ALL THIS WITH THE MAIN SWITCH OFF!

We are not testing for voltage, but testing for continuity (ie testing the resistance) from one end of a wire to the other.
The meter provides it's own power for this.

Well I had thought that - but I made the schoolgirl error of getting into a conversation with the B & Q man who seemed to think there was no way what I was buying would work together .....whilst I tried to wrestle the bell wire from his hands (that was the bit I was struggling with - too many wires to choose from) and run out the door!!

Aren't multi meters clever lol!

And I do have ladders for the light fixtures and no problem checking the wires in there....believe it or not with all this palava....but I installed them a few years ago and managed not to stuff it up!

 

[caledonia77]

and if I haven't said already - your a superstar!!