UFH controls - HELP!!!

[debzo]

Hello everyone - I'm a newbie here, and have a long standing pain in the proverbial .... that I would REALLY like to sort out! Bit long winded - but here goes.
Got worcester bosch greenstar 30cdi system condensing boiler, UFH to all floors - with one "dump it" radiator in porch, 9 port manifold ( with actuators) to ground floor and 4-port manifold to first floor, Unvented mains Ariston cylinder, , and ridiculously expensive optimiser programmer ( they call it a "Delta programmer" ) - the system was "designed" (ha! ha!) by IPPEC, and has never worked properly on the control system since no electrician can make head or tail of what does what - have spoken endlessly with the company and not got anywhere, since they keep wanting me to buy more or different things, and I REFUSE now! Don't mind if I need something adding that I can get from another supplier, but principal is now in the way with me dealing with the original company. Controls also include:- a central heating pump, plus separate pump to the ground floor manifold, with 2 port zone and 3-way mid position valves to ground floor manifold. There is also a 2 port zone for the HW cylinder, and 1st floor manifold. Being female ( stop laughing boyz!|) I won't take "no" for an answer, and don't believe this system cannot be wired to work as it should with the Delta. Just needs a bright spark to resolve it I think - can anyone enlighten me ( in plain English - ie put the pink wire here, blue one there! - only kidding I do know they don't come in pink! ) - but you get the gist? thanks

 

[simond]

I have never seen a Delta but we have been approached by two customers - who we couldn't help because in both cases they were outside our area - who couldn't understand the system and wanted to remove it.

Your system is quite advanced in what it does, but the operation and setup just seems unnecessarily complex for what is a simple domestic application.

IPPEC do a range of UFH manifolds but in priciple you could replace the whole controls with a few programmable stats and a timer.

How easy that would be using the existing wiring and its' routing is another matter and this is where being unable to see the job makes any prognosis of time, cost and disruption impossible.

The basic underfloor heating, unvented cylinder and boiler can be carried over of course, so it is only really wiring new controls and perhaps different UFH mixer valves needed.

 

[Agile]

I have seen a few installations like that one.

In all cases the heating hgas been installed and then virtually everything boxed in, usually with expensive tiles, with the wiring all concealed and inaccessible and the manifolds usually only touchable at arms length through a 300 mm square hole! In other words a total nightmare to make any modifications to or even do many repairs!

I know how this arises, the owner like everything hidden and the builder loves expensive tiling so the heating gets covered up before anyone realises that it does not work properly.

It goes against the grain with me but I usually have to walk away and just try to explain that it has been installed in a totally inaccessable way. They just look at me as if I am incompetent!

Tony

 

[debzo]

Simon

Thanks for advice - so assuming I keep all the controls except the Delta - how would I go about wiring the pumps, stats - room stat HW etc., to a new programmer ? I sort of get that the difference here would only be the programmer - so is there anywhere I could get an idiots guide to what wires need to go where, so I can at least get some control over what is now essentially only manually operated? The connections are not made through out the system as I said - no-one could grasp what it is supposed to do etc., Any help would be great.

Tony

thanks also - but ALL the wiring is readily accessible - I designed my house and made sure that the controls essentially went back to the "Control Room" ( a glorified airing cupboard really!) so every thing is fairly easy to get to and in the same place, for maintenance - except the boiler is in a different room - but the wiring is obviously back to the same place as the manifolds and controls!

I want to try and tackle this myself now - too many "No"s have made me more determined to sort it out - before another winter of little economical control on the system.

 

[Agile]

Nothing you have said have indicated that there is anything wrong with your system.

It may well only need setting up properly by someone who understands them.

Can the manufacturers not point you towards a service agent for their products who may undersnatd them?

Tony

 

[simond]

My suggestion was to bin the Delta.

Wiring diagrams for your current system are published on the IPPEC website.

Wiring diagrams for standard controls are available on Honeywell, Danfoss etc websites.

Many heating installers would find the conversion complexing so I am hoping you have some sort of a electronics/electrics experience.

I haven't got the inclination to wade through your installation on a forum, it would be like knitting a jumper through a keyhole. We would take it on as a paid job if you were in our area.

If you have the background you will be able to work it out (like myself and some others here) but it is expecting a bit much for a remote hand holding exercise of this complexity. On this occasion, I'll leave it to the others.

 

[debzo]

Nothing you have said have indicated that there is anything wrong with your system.

It may well only need setting up properly by someone who understands them.

Can the manufacturers not point you towards a service agent for their products who may undersnatd them?

Tony

Maybe i wasn't too clear at the beginning!

What is wrong with the system is that it isn't wired up to be able to actually use the programmer - so it all operates via a simple timer - but I want to be able to programme the CH and HW for different times of the day. The manufacturers have driven me up the wall with "someone will get back to you" - "the person who designed this has left now - not sure we can do anything" -attitude for too long, and as I said then go on to try and sell me more gadgetry. This is a well and truly closed road as far as I am concerned.

 

[debzo]

Simon

At over £400 for the Delta ,it's an expensive throw away! but then if it ain't being used, it's the same as throwing it away I guess. will go to the Ippec website and see what is there. I do have some experience electrically, but not with heating controls - give me lighting multi point switching etc., no problem - I probably just need to sit down for a couple of hours and wade through the technical stuff so I can understand what does what! I think its the time aspect to do this that has frightened off 4 Heating Engineers to date!

thanks anyway

 

[Agile]

Simon

I probably just need to sit down for a couple of hours and wade through the technical stuff so I can understand what does what! I think its the time aspect to do this that has frightened off 4 Heating Engineers to date!

thanks anyway

All these heating engineers know that they have to make a living and realising that its a many hour job then they will also have gathered, probably because you told them, that you dont expect to pay very much to get it sorted. So not surprisingly they have not shown any interest in becoming involved.

It sounds as if you have called them to your house, probably unpaid, and all they see is that there is not a reasonably worthwhile job to be done.

Its that scenario that makes me reluctant to make any unpaid visits as thats unfair to my clients because they end up subsidising any of my time which is unproductive.

Tony

 

[debzo]

Simon

I probably just need to sit down for a couple of hours and wade through the technical stuff so I can understand what does what! I think its the time aspect to do this that has frightened off 4 Heating Engineers to date!

thanks anyway

All these heating engineers know that they have to make a living and realising that its a many hour job then they will also have gathered, probably because you told them, that you dont expect to pay very much to get it sorted. So not surprisingly they have not shown any interest in becoming involved.

It sounds as if you have called them to your house, probably unpaid, and all they see is that there is not a reasonably worthwhile job to be done.

Its that scenario that makes me reluctant to make any unpaid visits as thats unfair to my clients because they end up subsidising any of my time which is unproductive.

Tony

Tony

You are SO off the mark here! Do you have a part time job freelancing to one of the "lets make up a story" daily rags? Talk about make something up out of nothing. You have zero infprmation as to my custom and practise in employing the services of any trade or professional! I don't make it my common practice to inform any professional, or otherwise,in advance, or after in fact - how long a job may take? nor what may be involved? - nor that I expect to receive either a service or advice for free! That is why THEY are the professional! Get it! That means they are more experienced and therefore likely to have more of a clue than some-one who is NOT a heating Engineer! I don't know why you should assume that it would be anything other than a direct request for advice? In truth it reflects badly on yourself that you see a genuine enquiry as something more underhand!
I find your comments offensive.
For the record -and before you go to "press" with more utter twaddle! - I paid on two separate occasions for a heating engineer to visit, and on two further occasions it was a free assessment. Not one engineer either refused the payment even though they couldn't undertake the work or proffer a report, nor insisted the "free" assessment to be later invoiced. On all four visits I faxed a copy of the installation as done in the first instance - so please don't try passing your bad experiences onto my circumstances.
You sound like a very disillusioned man.
Would you prefer salt with that chip?

 

[D_Hailsham]

Will these help?

Delta Installation Instructions
Delta User Instructions

 

[debzo]

Will these help?

Delta Installation Instructions
Delta User Instructions

Thanks

this is great - Simon suggested Ippec webpage earlier - this is the monster I have! Now I have to work out the wiring from this to the other controls - or ditch it as Simon suggested. Prefer the idea of "mind over matter" to resolve what in theory should be achievable.
Looks like my weekend will be scratching the grey matter some more!

 

[glasgowgas]

Simon

I probably just need to sit down for a couple of hours and wade through the technical stuff so I can understand what does what! I think its the time aspect to do this that has frightened off 4 Heating Engineers to date!

thanks anyway

All these heating engineers know that they have to make a living and realising that its a many hour job then they will also have gathered, probably because you told them, that you dont expect to pay very much to get it sorted. So not surprisingly they have not shown any interest in becoming involved.

It sounds as if you have called them to your house, probably unpaid, and all they see is that there is not a reasonably worthwhile job to be done.

Its that scenario that makes me reluctant to make any unpaid visits as thats unfair to my clients because they end up subsidising any of my time which is unproductive.

Tony

Tony

You are SO off the mark here! Do you have a part time job freelancing to one of the "lets make up a story" daily rags? Talk about make something up out of nothing. You have zero infprmation as to my custom and practise in employing the services of any trade or professional! I don't make it my common practice to inform any professional, or otherwise,in advance, or after in fact - how long a job may take? nor what may be involved? - nor that I expect to receive either a service or advice for free! That is why THEY are the professional! Get it! That means they are more experienced and therefore likely to have more of a clue than some-one who is NOT a heating Engineer! I don't know why you should assume that it would be anything other than a direct request for advice? In truth it reflects badly on yourself that you see a genuine enquiry as something more underhand!
I find your comments offensive.
For the record -and before you go to "press" with more utter twaddle! - I paid on two separate occasions for a heating engineer to visit, and on two further occasions it was a free assessment. Not one engineer either refused the payment even though they couldn't undertake the work or proffer a report, nor insisted the "free" assessment to be later invoiced. On all four visits I faxed a copy of the installation as done in the first instance - so please don't try passing your bad experiences onto my circumstances.
You sound like a very disillusioned man.
Would you prefer salt with that chip?

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........again

 

[debzo]

Glasgowgas



Is that the total amount of your contribution?

How utterly fascinating and so VERY helpful

 

[glasgowgas]

GIRFUY

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