What is a "suitable meter"?

[ericmark]

If your energy supplier cannot fit a smart meter in your home, Ofgem says your supplier must install a "suitable meter", with no disruption to your service.

What is the "suitable meter"? It seems you can refuse a smart meter, and if you do, what you pay is your problem, likely a fixed tariff, but there are also people in locations where smart meters don't work, that is completely different.

My smart meter works, so does not affect me, but as 30th June gets closer, people will need to find a workaround. There is a North/South divide, Liverpool to hull, in the North the radio signal is in the control of the supply network, and they could use the mobile phone network. The South is more of a problem, as there is only the mobile phone network.

As to the use of a quartz clock of some type, checked by the meter reader when he visits, the only problem I see, is slight variation in user's time clocks and suppliers time clocks, I had this with an EV supply where seemed to be some uncertainty as to if using BST or UTC in the summer. So although 00:00 to 05:00 I started using it at 01:00 just in case.

I could charge my battery in 1.5 hours, real EV users would be different, they likely need the full 5 hours, and storage heater users have always had a problem with 7 hours, and we have seen it split 6 + 1 with one hour some time in the day, and economy 10.

But I can see this question arising many times between now and the 30th June, specially in Wales, Cwm Brefi only got national grid in 2003, and car radio stops working many times as we travel through Wales, and mobile phone can't be relied on, I use PMR466 in some areas, even England, went to the Beamish Museum and found my mobile did not work, and not really that many hills around there.

So what will happen?

 

[JohnW2]

What is the "suitable meter"? It seems you can refuse a smart meter, and if you do, what you pay is your problem, likely a fixed tariff, but there are also people in locations where smart meters don't work, that is completely different.

Is it not just a fact of life ...

* If one has a 'dumb' single-rate meter, all one can have is a single-rate tariff.​

* If one has a 'dumb' dual-rate meter, then one can have (if offered) a dual rate tariff such as E7 or E10​

* For any more complex tariff, one simply has to have a 'smart' meter - and if there's practical reason why one cannot have such a meter, then one cannot have one of he more complex tariffs.​

 

[ericmark]

Is it not just a fact of life ...

I see your point, but if one has paid out to have storage heaters, or some other electric heating needing an off-peak tariff to be worthwhile, and then you are told, sorry, you can't have this tariff any more, I can see the house owner being a tad annoyed.

You can see how someone who has paid out for an EV, being told sorry the 10p per kWh you were promised is not available any more, you must pay 27p per kWh would be somewhat peeved.

If it is a case you're refused a smart meter, so you must pay more, then that's different, but the case you can't have a smart meter so you must pay more, that's not really acceptable.

I see on local Facebook many times when people find, smart meters don't work.

 

[EFLImpudence]

What about being told "We are unable to charge you 90p per kWh for cooking your dinner at dinner time"?


Does anyone really think that the overall result of smart meters will be paying less than you did before?

You're already paying £400 (or likely more) for fitting them.

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

If it is a case you're refused a smart meter, so you must pay more, then that's different, but the case you can't have a smart meter so you must pay more, that's not really acceptable.

I see on local Facebook many times when people find, smart meters don't work.

I would question the 'many', in by far the majority of cases, Smart Meters just work, and work absolutely fine. We have a less than perfect mobile signal here, usable most of the time, though not to be absolutely relied upon. I can go on my suppliers website, and see a record of their regular readings, throughout the day, and rarely are any missed.

 

[ericmark]

The valves it seems are no longer made, so when it goes, that is the end of radio 4 long wave. But the pricing does seem silly, what we are being asked to do is take a gamble. And we have no idea as to how long any tariff will last.

We have special tariffs where we need to give supplier control, not interested in them, as my software will not support it, but fixed time tariffs, we have so many variables, 4.1p, 5.12p, 10.54p, 15p, 30.68p per kWh, all offered as export rates by the same company, this is tied to import rates, not buying from same firm, timed import of 17.1p, 28.5p, 39.9p or single rate of 25.37p/kWh (15p/kWh export) and I have tried with spreadsheets, and failed to compare the rates in any meaning full way, and the times also change. So like comparing apples, oranges, limes, and pears with an exchange rate of potatoes and cucumbers.

I can look at my import and export but in real terms, since no times, it tells me very little. The app will tell me what I am being charged with the tariff I am on, but not what I would get charged if using a different tariff, so what does this really tell me what my bill will be with the tariff I have, when I was on an EV tariff it did show blue and light green how much on peak and off-peak, but not in a way I could compare with another tariff.

But for me not so bad, heating is oil, so it does not matter when, I don't have a power hungry EV, my battery is 48 volts, and 12 Ah it does not use enough to worry about, and I could always peddle.

But someone with storage radiators, is likely stuck with them. Even then seen the argument, I want flat warm 6 pm to 11 pm, why keep it warm when I am not there? Works out cheaper with a fan heater, then they have a child, and everything changes.

And with rented accommodation, often the tenant has no option. So I can do something, be it get another battery, get a heat pump, or buy wood for the open fire, many are stuck, they get what they are given, and if that is storage radiators, that's it, nothing they can do.

So to move from economy 7 to 24/7 tariff would be a huge jump in costs.

 

[JohnW2]

I see your point, but if one has paid out to have storage heaters, or some other electric heating needing an off-peak tariff to be worthwhile, and then you are told, sorry, you can't have this tariff any more, I can see the house owner being a tad annoyed.

Indeed - but has that ever happened?

Some (many? all?) suppliers no longer offer 'new' dual-rate tariffs - but for those who, like me, already are on a long-established E7 tariff, there has never been any suggestion of my supplier saying that I "can't have it any more" - and nor has there (yet) ever been a problem with my changing to a new supplier and still sticking with my E7 tariff..

Even if gthe day ever comes when they say (truthfully or not) that my meter needs replacing and that they can no longer get dual tariff meters (that hasn't happened yet), they could still install a 'smart' meter, without its communication facility' and just use it as a ('manually read') dual-tariff meter.

 

[JohnW2]

Does anyone really think that the overall result of smart meters will be paying less than you did before?

Well, that presumably could be the case if having a 'smart' meter installed resulted in one being able to have (financially beneficial) TOU tariffs that wouldn't be possible without such a meter.

 

[EFLImpudence]

Well, that presumably could be the case if having a 'smart' meter installed resulted in one being able to have (financially beneficial) TOU tariffs that wouldn't be possible without such a meter.

Yes, but overall would you expect the total cost to be less - or more?

I have pointed out many times that smart meters are a government requirement yet people continue to write as if it is the supplier who wanted them.

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

The valves it seems are no longer made, so when it goes, that is the end of radio 4 long wave. But the pricing does seem silly, what we are being asked to do is take a gamble. And we have no idea as to how long any tariff will last.

You have the freedom to switch suppliers, within days, your supplier must advise you in advance of any changes in your tariff - so what's the problem?

If the time signals on R4 offered value to enough people, then the valves would be worth producing. Obviously they do not..

 

[JohnW2]

Yes, but overall would you expect the total cost to be less - or more?

It obviously depends upon one's pattern of usage (or what one could do about one's pattern of usage), but there is certainly scope for the total cost to be appreciably (maybe considerably, in some cases) less if one can take advantage of 'complex TOU tariffs' which wouldn't be possible without a 'smart' meter - and that because such tariffs allow one to take advantage of low wholesale prices at low demand times of day..

I have pointed out many times that smart meters are a government requirement yet people continue to write as if it is the supplier who wanted them.

You have and, in turn, I have pointed out a good few times that 'smart' meters appear to be becoming increasingly prevalent in countries in which there is no 'government requirement' - so I suspect that (eventually if not 'now'), even in the absence of 'government requirements', UK suppliers would probably have been encouraging people to have them (installed at times when 'routine meter changes' were deemed necessary, hence at little additional cost {just difference in price between dumb and 'smart' meters}, rather than to install them 'unnecessarily' because of government edicts).

 

[EFLImpudence]

I think you are missing the point.

It obviously depends upon one's pattern of usage (or what one could do about one's pattern of usage), but there is certainly scope for the total cost to be appreciably (maybe considerably, in some cases) less if one can take advantage of 'complex TOU tariffs' which wouldn't be possible without a 'smart' meter - and that because such tariffs allow one to take advantage of low wholesale prices at low demand times of day..

So - whose electricity bill is less than it used to be - say ten years ago?

 

[JohnW2]

I think you are missing the point.
So - whose electricity bill is less than it used to be - say ten years ago?

I'm not 'missing' it, since that's an entirely different point, given what has happened to energy prices during those ten years.

I'm talking about the bills when someone has a 'smart' meter installed in comparison with the bills immediately before it was installed - and, as I've said, with appropriate usage patterns and tariffs (ones not possible without a SM), there is scope for bills to be appreciably lower than they were immediately before the meter was installed.

 

[EFLImpudence]

I'm not 'missing' it, since that's an entirely different point, given what has happened to energy prices during those ten years.

Exactly - in the U.K.

I'm talking about the bills when someone has a 'smart' meter installed in comparison with the bills immediately before it was installed - and, as I've said, with appropriate usage patterns and tariffs (ones not possible without a SM), there is scope for bills to be appreciably lower than they were immediately before the meter was installed.

If you say so - and want to do everything in the middle of the night.

 

[Why Not Indeed]

If you say so - and want to do everything in the middle of the night.

Have you tried? It's not that difficult and "everything" need not be done in the middle of the night. I am on Agile, which wouldn't exist without a smart meter. My average rate in a month has never exceeded the "cap", so I am saving money [15.5p for mid-March to mid-April, for example].