What is a "suitable meter"?

[Harry Bloomfield]

For me, yes, I'm alright, jack. I was not talking about me, but those who can't use a smart meter, and there are many in this area of Wales.

One solution, would be for Ofcom to allow the use of the Internet, as an acceptable option to relay consumption figures, to suppliers. Octopus already do this, using their pink thingummy. I have one, and it works a treat, feeding a constant stream of my instantaneous figures, every 10 seconds, to Octopus, but it is unofficial, I cannot be billed using it.

 

[JohnW2]

The w/sale prices rises, came hand in hand, with instability, so covering themselves took care of that extra margin. Energy retail is a highly competitive market, with so many companies involved. Increase their prices, expect too big a profit, then they soon lose customers, who seek out a better offer.

The point of their systems is to prevent what would otherwise be a fall in profits. If profits rise, it is an indication that they have 'over-compensated'. There is no need for profits to actually rise, other than to satisfy greed (aka shareholders)

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

The point of their systems is to prevent what would otherwise be a fall in profits. If profits rise, it is an indication that they have 'over-compensated'. There is no need for profits to actually rise, other than to satisfy greed (aka shareholders)

Even shareholders, are entitled to make a reasonable profit from their investment, I know I do, or I would move my investment elsewhere.

 

[JohnW2]

Even shareholders, are entitled to make a reasonable profit from their investment, I know I do, or I would move my investment elsewhere.

Indeed - but I'm less sure how reasonable it would be for them to expect the profit on their investment to 'double overnight' just because someone had started a war somewhere, resulting in the wholesale price doubling!

 

[ericmark]

One solution, would be for Ofcom to allow the use of the Internet, as an acceptable option to relay consumption figures, to suppliers. Octopus already do this, using their pink thingummy. I have one, and it works a treat, feeding a constant stream of my instantaneous figures, every 10 seconds, to Octopus, but it is unofficial, I cannot be billed using it.

I had one from Scottish Power, must be some 20 years ago now, and the bills were based on what it said, and corrected when an actually reading was made, and always within £10 of what we had been billed over the year, still have the device, it has a CT coil and a battery transmitter, very like the one used with the iboost+ and a display very like the IHD which also plugged into the router, and seem to remember 3 socket energy monitors also came with it. (they stopped working)

And for a single rate tariff, the system worked well. Really no point in a smart meter.

But for a dual rate tariff, they were not good enough, I could unplug it from the internet, and clearly if my internet went down it stopped working, and clearly the time needs to be reasonably accurate. With the British Gas EV tariff I was on, the smart meter and the IHD did not agree on time. Winter it was OK, but Summer one showed daylight saving time, and the other showed unified time constant (UTC). It was claimed to get off-peak midnight until 5 am, so set it 1 am to 5 am to be sure.

With my battery charging, it took 90 minutes, so it did not really matter where in the 5 hours I did the charging. As to how fast storage radiators heat up, not sure, I would assume less than 7 hours, but how accurate it needs to be I don't know? If it takes 6 hours to fully charge, then could start charging ½ hour after change over, and stop ½ hour before change over, so as long as clock within ½ hour between meter readings no real problem.

But I would think there would need to be some British Standard as to how much the measurements can be out, either in kWh or time, and the new "suitable meter" will need to comply to these standards. A quartz clock which is corrected from the internet, or radio can keep good time, my car seems to use something, as the radio clock seems to change the hour when added or removed reasonably quickly, I assume radio data service (RDS) corrects it.

We have the technology, what the teleswitch did, which a RDS or internet can't do, is to vary the start time so we don't get every off-peak device turning on together. With "smart" meters, that has already been lost. I don't get a signal from the meter to tell me when to start charging, it is up to me to set the device, which may or may not be at 11:30pm/midnight/or 2am depending on the tariff used.

But we are now into the 11th hour, so by now we should know how it is going to be done.

 

[Mister Banks]

Does anyone really think that the overall result of smart meters will be paying less than you did before?

I did. The first year of having a smart meter saved me about £800 in energy cost despite using slightly more energy, due to having a smart tariff which is not available unless you have a smart meter.

 

[EFLImpudence]

I did. The first year of having a smart meter saved me about £800 in energy cost despite using slightly more energy, due to having a smart tariff which is not available unless you have a smart meter.

Maybe you were being ripped-off before.

What was the total kWh usage in that first year?

It is difficult to imagine how you managed to save £800 when my total bill with a flat rate is only ~£500.
Was it with one of the gamblers who went bust and left everyone else to pick up the tab?

I am minded of when my father had a (not smart) water meter installed; his bill immediately reduced to a third of what it was before. Obviously this could not have applied to everyone if everyone had had a meter.

 

[ericmark]

Using one battery, my cost went down, using two batteries the cost went up. With two batteries, one is using more off-peak, around 6 kWh and that is not used up by time sun comes out. With 3 kWh it was used up before sun came out.

In the summer, the battery will last until the sun comes out, most days. Without an off-peak boost.

My solar will start at around 9 am, and I have used 0.4 kWh peak power. But with off-peak around 6 kWh.

 

[Mister Banks]

Maybe you were being ripped-off before.

What was the total kWh usage in that first year?

It is difficult to imagine how you managed to save £800 when my total bill with a flat rate is only ~£500.
Was it with one of the gamblers who went bust and left everyone else to pick up the tab?

I am minded of when my father had a (not smart) water meter installed; his bill immediately reduced to a third of what it was before. Obviously this could not have applied to everyone if everyone had had a meter.

At the moment most UK energy bills when based on the capped rate are a rip off, it’s the way the energy is priced that is the issue.

I am with Octopus and have been since late 2021 so I can compare my bills , at first I was on the capped tariff but I have been on the tracker tariff since Jan 2024. I will post figures later.

EDIT: Figures removed as I got my dates wrong, will have another look.

@EFLImpudence EDIT2: Dates sorted. I had the smart meters installed in October 2022 and was on the capped tariff until I changed to the tracker tariff in Jan 2024.

2023 capped tariff
Electricity usage 4815.9kWh
Gas usage 12385.8kWh
Total cost of energy £2,895.67

2024 tracker tariff (only available with a smart meter)
Electricity usage 4935.1kWh
Gas usage 12856.3kWh
Total cost of energy £1,962.64

That’s a saving of £933.03 in a year due to having a smart meter and a smart tariff.

 

[JohnW2]

It is difficult to imagine how you managed to save £800 when my total bill with a flat rate is only ~£500.

I think you may be a bit out-of-touch with what electricity prices have been doing in the UK ...

Ofgem estimate that the average UK house (without electric heating) uses about 2,700 kWh per year. At the energy cap's peak (67.47 p/kWh in January 2023) that would equate to about £1,822 p.a. - so that a reduction of £800 would not be out of the question.

Indeed, even for people (with that 'average UK house) who have remained on the capped rate throughout, they would today (cap= 27.03 p/kWh) be paying about £1,092 p.a. less than they would have been paying at Jan 23 capped rates.

Of course, all the figures are likely to be much higher for those with night storage heaters or other electric space heating

 

[EFLImpudence]

I think you may be a bit out-of-touch with what electricity prices have been doing in the UK ...

No I am not. That is what I have been saying.
Rip-off - which you seem to think is justified because they call it a cap.

Ofgem estimate that the average UK house (without electric heating) uses about 2,700 kWh per year. At the energy cap's peak (67.47 p/kWh in January 2023) that would equate to about £1,822 p.a. - so that a reduction of £800 would not be out of the question.

There you go.
That is about the same amount as I use so what is the justification for the U.K. prices?

Mr.Banks seems to be aware that if you have a smart meter you will still be ripped-off but by not quite as much so not a cheap rate nor a saving.

Indeed, even for people (with that 'average UK house) who have remained on the capped rate throughout, they would today (cap= 27.03 p/kWh) be paying about £1,092 p.a. less than they would have been paying at Jan 23 capped rates.

So are they now 'saving' £1,092 in your language?

And what happened on Jan 23 to allow that?

Of course, all the figures are likely to be much higher for those with night storage heaters or other electric space heating

Of course - disgraceful.

 

[JohnW2]

Rip-off - which you seem to think is justified because they call it a cap.

I'm not saying that anything is 'justified'. They call it a 'cap' because it is a cap - i.e. prices would very probably be higher ('even more of a rip-off' in your language) if there were no cap.

There you go. That is about the same amount as I use so what is the justification for the U.K. prices?

As I've said, I have no idea why UK energy prices are as high as they are. Mind you, I've also said that in some countries energy prices are subsidised (with taxpayer's money), such that most people in those countries are actually paying much more for their energy than they think.

So are they now 'saving' £1,092 in your language?

I'm saying that bills for the average UK house are about £1,092 less with April25 prices than they were with January 23 prices. Whether you want to call that a 'saving' (which, without qualification, is a pretty meaningless word in this context) is up to you.

If, by having a 'smart' meter installed and switching to a tariff that that facilitated, someone was able to reduce their bills by £800 p.a., I imagine that most people would call that "a saving", wouldn't they?

And what happened on Jan 23 to allow that?

I'm not sure that 'allow' is the right word. It happened because wholesale prices rose, an happened so that retail prices did not rise to even higher than that cap.

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

I am with Octopus and have been since late 2021 so I can compare my bills , at first I was on the capped tariff but for a bit over a year I have been on the tracker tariff. I will post figures later.

I've been looking for an app, or some software, which would be able to run the numbers on various tariffs for me, over the past week/month/years consumption. I have not been able to find anything so far. I shouldn't be too difficult, all it should need is my account number, and API, to grab all my consumption data.

 

[Mister Banks]

I've been looking for an app, or some software, which would be able to run the numbers on various tariffs for me, over the past week/month/years consumption. I have not been able to find anything so far. I shouldn't be too difficult, all it should need is my account number, and API, to grab all my consumption data.

All I have found is Octopus Compare by M4 Consulting Ltd for IOS. It has promise but is a bit slow to update with tariff changes and only appears to work with electricity tariffs.

 

[ericmark]

Ofgem estimate that the average UK house (without electric heating) uses about 2,700 kWh per year. At the energy cap's peak (67.47 p/kWh in January 2023) that would equate to about £1,822 p.a. - so that a reduction of £800 would not be out of the question.

5164.14 kWh used, 3349.8 kWh imported approx cost hard to work out. I was importing around 6 kWh every night, at off-peak rate of 8.95p per kWh, so a bill for a year around the £560 mark. I made an error when I fitted the second battery, the off-peak rate no longer suited. And we use an immersion heater in the summer, as cheaper than oil, and also have electric showers.

We always use the tumble drier, cheaper than re-wash after bird lime.

However, the whole question is a "suitable meter" where smart meters will not work. My radio in the car autocorrects time, so one would assume the RDS sends a time signal. So really the technology is there, and has been for many years. June 30, 2025 is fast approaching, so by now one should know what the "suitable meter" is.

The problem is, people who contribute to this section of the forum are in the main electricians, and we tend to earn a reasonable wage, it is those on minium wage who often live in rented homes, and have little to say as to fitting of solar panels or batteries, and have to put up with what the world throws at them.

I can afford a heat pump drier, although not convinced any cheaper than a vented which takes 2.5 hours to dry the clothes. The single battery could only provide 3 kWh, going to 2 batteries, means 5 kWh so we can in the main run the washing machine tumble drier, and dishwasher together. As long as not all started at the same time.

I have worked out, better not to have an off-peak tariff, as the peak is so much cheaper, was paying 31.31p now 25.37p and getting 15p for export. But this in not going to help storage heater users.