What is a "suitable meter"?

[JohnW2]

However, the whole question is a "suitable meter" where smart meters will not work.

I can see no reason why a 'smart' meter would be required when one is doing some export IF both import and export were single-rate or, at most, 'fixed-time' dual-rate tariffs. My 'dumb' meter has the ability to record import and export separately for the two 'fixed' ('peak' and 'off-peak') periods - but the meter then obviously has to be read manually (by myself or a meter reader).

However, that's a big IF, since I'm not at all sure that any supplier offers a single-rate or dual-rate tariff including export (and nor whether anyone would want such a tariff).

The moment one wants a tariff which (for import and/or export) is 'dynamic' and/or which has more than two 'rate periods', there really is no option than to have what we call a 'smart' meter. I can't see that anything other than what we call a smart meter would be "suitable"! for such a tariff", no matter what Ofgem might say, can you?

The obvious solution would presumably be for them to implement some workaround to facilitate communication with a standard 'smart' meter -in which case "...cannot fit a 'smart' meter" would not arise?

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

I have worked out, better not to have an off-peak tariff, as the peak is so much cheaper, was paying 31.31p now 25.37p and getting 15p for export. But this in not going to help storage heater users.

I've just taken a gamble, and decided to move back to the Octopus Tracker, after being on a reasonable 14 month Fix, since the end of February. Octoprice, suggested the Tracker would have been cheaper to stay on the tracker, compared to my 14 month Fix.

 

[ericmark]

Octopus give different export rate depending on the tariff, the flux option most of the day only 10.54p I know that 30.68p from 4pm to 7pm but half of the year I am hardly going to produce at that time.

In fact, in winter I may be using power from the grid, at a massive 39.9p/kWh, so not sure why anyone would want that tariff?

Many of the tariffs require some access to solar inverter or car charger, so in the main these 6p/kWh tariffs are not available. Or they will not pay a reasonable rate for export.

But for storage heaters, it is how long is the night rate, and how much.

As a rule of thumb, if you use around 40% or more of your electricity at night, then it's likely worth sticking with.

based on

Updated April 2025. (1) Energy usage calculated at 3,900kWh/year. Average prices across all regions (average day rate 33.60p/kWh, average night rate 14.92p/kWh, average daily standing charge 53.62p/day).

With a central heat store so you can use a basic EV tariff, maybe worth it. There is no question that it would be worth it with a smart meter

The ‘Snug Octopus’ tariff is a smart tariff with a peak rate and an off-peak rate, similar to a standard Economy 7 tariff. It offers up to six hours of cheap electricity every night between 00:30 and 06:30, plus during winter months, you get an extra hour in the afternoon. As it's a smart tariff, you'll need a working smart meter to be eligible.

During these off-peak times, your storage heaters will automatically charge up. Any electricity you use - not just for your storage heaters - during the off-peak time will be charged at the off-peak rate of 9p/kWh. The rest of the time, you'll be charged the day rate (current average rate is 27.5p/kWh). You can check the rates for your region on Octopus Energy's website.

Snug Octopus is a variable tariff, meaning the price you pay can rise and fall with the cost of wholesale energy. Octopus will always give you reasonable notice of any changes to the pricing of its flexible tariffs.

But this needs a meter with some sort of output so it can turn the off-peak on at the same time as the appliances which use it, since the time of afternoon charge moves, without a smart meter, can see no way this can be done.

 

[JohnW2]

But this needs a meter with some sort of output so it can turn the off-peak on at the same time as the appliances which use it, since the time of afternoon charge moves, without a smart meter, can see no way this can be done.

As I recently wrote, if one wants any sort of 'dynamic tariff' (i.e. 'times' change), let alone the ability to control equipment/appliances in response to changes, I really can't see how anything other than some sort of 'smart' meter (and, currently, there is only one type) could possibly be "suitable".

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

As I recently wrote, if one wants any sort of 'dynamic tariff' (i.e. 'times' change), let alone the ability to control equipment/appliances in response to changes, I really can't see how anything other than some sort of 'smart' meter (and, currently, there is only one type) could possibly be "suitable".

And if they really want to make these smart meters universal, they are going to have to redesign the comms, to allow alternate methods.

 

[JohnW2]

And if they really want to make these smart meters universal, they are going to have to redesign the comms, to allow alternate methods.

I was under the impression that they already had several workarounds available to them (if they choose to implement them) in situations in which they can't get an adequate GSM connection. Is that not the case?

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

I was under the impression that they already had several workarounds available to them (if they choose to implement them) in situations in which they can't get an adequate GSM connection. Is that not the case?

They are still not allowed to make use of the internet, almost everyone these days has some internet which could be used.

 

[ericmark]

Is this the work around?

 

[JohnW2]

They are still not allowed to make use of the internet, almost everyone these days has some internet which could be used.

Using a customer's internet connection would not necessarily be reliable enough. At it's worst, I know of at least some people who switch off their routers when the house is unoccupied, or merely 'at night', some even simply 'when they don't "need it"! Use of the internet would also presumably introduce some 'security' issues?

In any event, who/what is it that is 'not allowing' them to use the internet, I wonder?

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

In any event, who/what is it that is 'not allowing' them to use the internet, I wonder?

Well, providing it is on regularly, that is all that is essential, to transmit the data, and sync the time. I understand Offgem doesn't allow its use, with respect to billing purposes. As I've said, my internet sends updated data to Octopus, every 10 seconds, but they cannot use that, for billing.

 

[JohnW2]

View attachment 380986 Is this the work around?

Yep, it is - but only for a 'fixed times' (i.e. 'non-dynamic') dual-rate tariff (like E7).

 

[JohnW2]

Well, providing it is on regularly, that is all that is essential, to transmit the data, and sync the time.

Sure - but, as I said, that cannot be guaranteed if it is a customer's internet connection. If the electricity supplier installed their (permanently powered) own internet connection, that could work.

I understand Offgem doesn't allow its use, with respect to billing purposes. As I've said, my internet sends updated data to Octopus, every 10 seconds, but they cannot use that, for billing.

Given what we've seen happening to M&S, Harrods, the NHS and goodness knows who else, maybe they do not feel that things that have happened 'over the internet' can be adequately trusted not to have been tampered with to be safe to use as a basis for billing?

 

[plugwash]

Using a customer's internet connection would not necessarily be reliable enough. At it's worst, I know of at least some people who switch off their routers when the house is unoccupied, or merely 'at night', some even simply 'when they don't "need it"!

It should be perfectly possible to design a smart meter that worked with an intermittent connection back to base. Even a years worth of half-hourly readings would likely be in the tens of kilobytes, and as a last resort you could have an interface for a meter reader to collect the readings over bluetooth.

Use of the internet would also presumably introduce some 'security' issues?

Indeed, which may be why regulators are reluctant.

 

[JohnW2]

It should be perfectly possible to design a smart meter that worked with an intermittent connection back to base. Even a years worth of half-hourly readings would likely be in the tens of kilobytes ...

Sure, that would be fine for billing, provided that the connection was at least occasionally available. However, one needs much better than 'occasional connection' if one wants to use and manage 'dynamic tariffs, doesn't one?

Indeed, which may be why regulators are reluctant.

Quite, as I wrote in my recent post.

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

However, one needs much better than 'occasional connection' if one wants to use and manage 'dynamic tariffs, doesn't one?

No - all that is needed, is a record of how much used, and when.