Will bonding cause an MCB to operate?

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If bonding is there to limit the touch voltage that would suggest that
the actual bonding connections will not cause the MCB (or RCD) to trip
The CPC is there to operate the MCB during an earth fault, and that should operate in a fast time
and during that time the bonding lifts everything to mains voltage


If you had an immersion heater, and the pipe work
was connected to the MET via bonding connections, but the CPC for the circuit
was not connected to the MET, would the MCB or the RCD operate, if the live touched
the copper pipe work.
I suspect the RCD might? but not sure about the MCB

All cpcs and bonding are connected together at the MET
so the fault will flow through all these connections
would that not take the place of the missing CPC for the immersion?
 
If bonding is there to limit the touch voltage that would suggest that the actual bonding connections will not cause the MCB (or RCD) to trip
I presume that you are talking about 'main bonding'. The (only) purpose of that is to prevent there ever being a significant potential difference between the 'earth' potential of the installation (MET & CPCs, hence exposed-conductiveparts of equipment) and any 'extraneous-conductive parts' (e.g. water/gas supply pipes) which enter the premises from outside. Provided the installation has an earth, the presence or absence of main bonding has no consequence in terms of whether or not MCBs and RCDs will trip.
The CPC is there to operate the MCB during an earth fault, and that should operate in a fast time ....
Indeed.
.... and during that time the bonding lifts everything to mains voltage
during that time the voltages of the installation's 'earth' (MET/CPCs) (including anything bonded) will become very close to one another, at some voltage (relative to true earth) between zero and full mains voltage.
If you had an immersion heater, and the pipe work was connected to the MET via bonding connections, but the CPC for the circuit
was not connected to the MET, would the MCB or the RCD operate, if the live touched the copper pipe work. I suspect the RCD might? but not sure about the MCB
If there were main bonding connecting the pipework to the MET, then that would be effectively the same as having a CPC connecting the immersion to the MET - so both RCDs and MCBs would operate as one would normally expect.
All cpcs and bonding are connected together at the MET .... so the fault will flow through all these connections ... would that not take the place of the missing CPC for the immersion?
Quite so - that's what I just wrote above. In the situation you postulate, the connection from MET to immersion would be via the pipework and boding conductor, rather than at least some it being via a CPC, but the connection would still be there - so, as I wrote, everything would work 'as expected'
 
Bonding is so multi faults will not cause two exposed metallic objects from have a voltage between them. If the supply on feeds one item for example a shaver then it would be safer not to have bonding. But most transformers supply many things, so we use bonding to cause auto disconnection in the case of a fault.

So a MCB is a duel device, both thermal and magnetic, the latter is much faster, but is set 5 x (B), 10 x (C) or 20 x (D) to the thermal device, so an immersion heater (3 kW) is likely supplied with a 16B MCB which will need 16 x 5 = 90 amps to trip, so 230/90 = 2.56 Ω with 5% for safety that's 2.44 Ω if using earth rods that would be hard to achieve to earth, so only option is a RCD. But still working with 2.44 Ω live to live or line to neutral.

In the days of fuses, if we got is slightly out, it was not so bad, it took a few mS longer to disconnect, but with a MCB the difference between magnetic disconnect time and thermal disconnect time is huge, so we need to use a loop impedance tester to ensure with a short circuit it will activate the magnetic part. But that's live to live, line to earth we can use the RCD so much less it required to trip it.
 
Bonding is so multi faults will not cause two exposed metallic objects from have a voltage between them. If the supply on feeds one item for example a shaver then it would be safer not to have bonding.
That statement might be confusing to those who are not 'in the know', since I presume you are talking specifically about an 'isolating transformer', the output of which is 'floating' (neither side connected to earth) - which, in UK installations, is usually only seen in 'shaver sockets'. Hence ....
But most transformers supply many things, so we use bonding to cause auto disconnection in the case of a fault.
Yes, but the DNO transformers which supply installations, hence supply 'many things', DO have one side connected to earth, so it makes no difference whether they are supplying one or many things.
So a MCB is a duel device, both thermal and magnetic, the latter is much faster, but is set 5 x (B), 10 x (C) or 20 x (D) to the thermal device, so an immersion heater (3 kW) is likely supplied with a 16B MCB which will need 16 x 5 = 90 amps to trip, so 230/90 = 2.56 Ω with 5% for safety that's 2.44 Ω if using earth rods that would be hard to achieve to earth, so only option is a RCD. But still working with 2.44 Ω live to live or line to neutral.
Again, I think this might all confuse people. For a start, your arithmetic, and basis of your calculations, could do with some improvement. Firstly, 16 x 5 is 80, not 90. Secondly, in calculating the maximum Zs which would be guaranteed to result in magnetic tripping (in the face of a zero impedance L-CPC fault) you should take Cmin (0.95, even though it should really be 0.94 :-) ) into account and calculate that figure using a voltage of 218.5 V (230 x 0.95), not 230 V. The correct calculations would therefore have led to a minimum current for guaranteed magnetic tripping (In x 5) of 80 A, hence a maximum Zs of 2.73 Ω (218.5 / 80).

Thirdly, and perhaps most importantly, although what you say about 'using earth rods' is correct, it would probably be desrable to point out that this is true of any circuit in a TT installation - so, adequate fault protection of every/any cuircuit in a TT installation would have to be provided by an RCD.
....But still working with 2.44 Ω live to live or line to neutral.
Even I am confused by that one, so good luck to those who know less than I do :-) What do you mean by "live to live" - do you mean "phase to phase" in a 3-phase installation, "Line/Phase to Neutral" or what? .. and what does the sentence as a whole mean?
In the days of fuses, if we got is slightly out, it was not so bad, it took a few mS longer to disconnect, but with a MCB the difference between magnetic disconnect time and thermal disconnect time is huge ....
I don't think that even "a few" (or even "a good few"!) seconds would make much difference (it's incredibly improbable that someone would be 'touching the wrong things' at the very moment an L-E fault arose), and currents approaching the magnetic trip threshold will thermally trip an MCB in well under 15 seconds (these curves being for B-curve MCBs) ...

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It is often said that "Bonding and Earthing are two different things"

Well YES but then NO.
(sounds like Little Britain?).

Earthing (Circuit Protective Conductors a.k.a C P C) is in place to connect metal bodies of electrical appliances etc to "Earth" (our installation MET = Main Earthing Terminal) and we assume (incorrectly) that it would be a dead short in the case of an earth fault and therefore blow a fuse or trip a breaker or trip an RCD of some type - it might trip more than one of them at the same time or it might only trip one but either way it is job done so all well ).

Bonding (Main Bonding) is in place to connect pretty much everything in touching distance with a low impedance (resistance) because it is intended to be an "Equalising Conductor" therefore everything you might touch is at all times pretty much the same potential and will pretty much keep it all to the same voltage until the Circuit Protective Device has tripped , and at all times.
We try to keep "True Earth" to that same voltage too . Zero volts is the only safe voltage and the nearer to each other we can keep all our body parts the safer we will be.

So two distinct things Earthing and Bonding .

However.
Fortuitously, bonding will often assist to bring down the effective earth path impedance to a smaller figure and therefore cause a fuse/breaker etc to operate which can be helpful sometimes.

*****************
Where ever you go on this planet you will always find any two places that you casn touch will be at different electrical potentials (voltages).
Just in the same way that wherever you go on this planet you will always meet someone whose Grandad was born in Knotty Ash!
 
I don't know the earth requirements for a DNO supply. I know it took between 3 and 8 x 1.2 meter earth rods to get an 8 Ω reading in Point of Ayr gas terminal so for most homes we are likely looking at around 60 Ω but even with a 0.5 Ω earth mat, to work out current one would have to add the resistance of the DNO earth so in real terms a TT installation today is unlikely to be better than 1 Ω.

Although we can measure the resistance of an earth rod, using two probes, in the main we measure the combined resistance of consumers and DNO's earth rods, or the earth loop impedance.

Today we do have a true TT supply, but back when my parents house was built (1954) homes were joined with water pipes, and so it was likely in real terms it was a TN-S supply.

The changing of cast iron pipes to plastic, both with water and gas, resulted in homes often having no real earth, often the earth rod found, with a light bare copper wire to it, was nothing to do with the power supply, but for party line phone lines. So we still find every so often a home with no earth. However, the home is likely still bonded, so the only danger is when moving from the bonded area (equipotential zone) to a non-bonded area.

However, when a bit of equipment goes faulty, specially with an earth fault, we would like it to auto disconnect, so with a 32 amp supply, with no more than 50 volts to true earth, ohms law tells us 50/32 = 1.5625 Ω and it is unlikely we can get a reading that low.

So either we need an earth supplied by the DNO, or some other method to detect we have a fault, the first idea was to measure 50 volts to a true earth, the ELCB-v (earth leakage circuit breaker - voltage operated) but the problem was the sensing coil could easily be short-circuited with some other earthed device, so we moved to measuring the imbalance in the current in the live wires instead ELCB-c, we still use the ELCB-v in some places, like the EV charging point, but it is now used to detect a loss of the earth connection, rather than an earth fault in the equipment, referred to as loss of PEN detection.
The problem with the ELCB-c or RCD as it is now called, is using an AC supply, there is always some leakage due to capacitive and induction linking, so we need to allow some leakage to occur, and the amount depends on how much wiring is after the RCD. But to protect personal, we want to limit it to below 30 mA.

The RCD is never perfect, and the installation is never perfect, so we have set limits which should be measured, so we say the background leakage should not exceed 30% or with a 30 mA RCD that's 9 mA, and the RCD should not trip below ½ its rated valve so 15 mA and should trip at rated valve so 30 mA, and at 5 times the rated valve it must trip in less than 40 mS, there is also a time for 30 mA but offhand can't remember it.

In practice, doing a ramp test, we expect a 30 mA RCD to trip at around 24 to 28 mA, but one of the reasons to test them, was that strain on the casing caused by the cables in the terminals could stop early versions from working, so we need to test after it has been installed, with a RCD and MCBs turning off the MCBs reduced the imbalance on the circuits to a minium, so testing with MCBs off was reasonable enough. However, with RCBOs one can't remove the circuit, and even with MCBs we did not disconnect the neutral, so to test the RCD/RCBO we should also measure the back-ground leakage. We should also measure both the positive and negative half cycles, so to fully test a RCD it needs 7 tests.

But the powers that control us, have said we do not really need to test so toughly, after all we don't test MCBs at all. The 7 tests now are only done when we have a problem with an RCD/RCBO tripping. I have not got the new test procedure to hand, it came out after I had retired.

In the early days, finding a clamp on ammeter with will measure in 1 mA increments was hard, I know until a few years ago mine only measured in 10 mA increments, so I had no idea if within the 9 mA limit. But if it did not trip at 15 mA and did trip at 30 mA likely close enough anyway.

I have found cracked earth rod clamps, nuts and bolts have worked loose, mainly with plant which vibrates, and poor installation were someone has not removed paint, or not used grease etc, after removing paint, so there is corrosion, even no attention paid to the electrochemical series and the earth has been eaten away. Also, odd readings where diodes have been placed in the earth to stop problems with the electrochemical series. (Mainly canal boats)

I have also worked in IT supplies, not really allowed in the UK, in my case a tunnel boring machine which had a delta secondary to the supply transformer, and believe me that was shocking. I walked around with neon screwdriver to test any metal before touching.

The USA does have some odd ways to earth, and also use delta secondary on transformers, so one has to be careful reading anything from USA, as not the same as UK, or nearly anywhere else on the earth, I assume they were the first and we learnt from their errors?
 
That "Hot Leg" method of wiring a secondary Eric? seems as strange to me but there again the Americans (The USA branch at least) seems to sometimes have some strange ideas anyway.
 
Yes, but the hot leg method normally has a centre tap on one winding, the TBM in Hong Kong did not have that, it was an IT system.

I have also seen some strange earthing methods with a Honda generator, where to earth we had 57.5 - 0 - 172.5 volts. It was due to trying to make the generator dual voltage, but not switch the earth.

Again seen on the Falkland a generator with 115 - 0 - 115 volts, the problem is they were using a protective device on just one live wire, not both of them.

Also seem a machine burn out, because someone replaced the 230 to 110 volt control transformer with a 230 to 55-0-55 volt transformer, and an earth fault burnt out the wiring again as only one live fused.

It is so easy to make this sort of error, the transformer supplied at 230 to 110, nothing written on it to say there was a centre tap connected to the iron core of the transformer.

No excuse, lack of testing after transformer changed.
If you had an immersion heater, and the pipe work was connected to the MET via bonding connections, but the CPC for the circuit was not connected to the MET, would the MCB or the RCD operate, if the live touched the copper pipe work.
I suspect the RCD might? but not sure about the MCB
I would agree, the RCD might, but not enough current to work a MCB. This is why we use the loop impedance meter, as a volt meter can show as if the earth is intact.

But I remember using the RCD tester and it failing to operate, but the test button worked OK, on invesigation found an ELCB-v ELCB-v.jpg still in circuit, before the RCD, can't off hand remember the resistance of the coil, but not that high, was supprised the RCD did not work.
 
Back to the OP.
If you had bonding but cpc not connected you would usually still have an effective "c.p.c (earthwire)" in effect.
Example - you have 6.0 or 10.0 mm bonding to the pipework at or near the appliance etc in question - say immersion heater pipework for instance then the immersion heater develops an earth fault, if the circuit earth is not connected the bonding conductor would in effect be acting as the earthwire for that circuit as well as actually being the main bonding.

This effect also happens with supplimentary bonding (sometimes called cross bonding) - example a bathroom with a lighting circuit, including an earthwire, a shower circuit including an earthwire, a towel rail including an earthwire etc etc and all those earthed circuits are connected together nearby with supplimentary bonding then imagine one of the earths on one (or more) of those circuits then it may well still have a effective earth because it is cross connected by the bonding conductor of the healthy circuits.

Not its intention but in reality can be effective.

Illustrated by my preffered habit whereby an installation has more than one lighting circuit and each circuit is earthed, I usually make sure that somewhere on each circuit the earthwire is linked to the earthwire of another such circuit - that increases the chance that in the case that in the case of a (not unkown) event of an earth becomming accidentally disconnected the circuit (or part of it) still retains a connection to earth.
It also has the added advantage that the effective impedence (resistance) of the earthed part is reduced which is no bad thing.

In my time I have seen quite a few installtions that might have been decent at the time of initial installation but over the years poor alterations/ammendments have resulted in loss of a proper intended earth connection.
Only pure luck of cross connection has prevented harm.
 
It is often said that "Bonding and Earthing are two different things"... Well YES but then NO. .... (sounds like Little Britain?). ...
So two distinct things Earthing and Bonding .
Two things installed for different reasons -earthing facilitates clearance of faults by an over-current device (MCB or fuse), whereas bonding reduces the possible electrical potential difference between two simultaneously touchable things.

However, as you touch on in what you go on to write, when one installs a bit of G/Y cable (or the CPC of a multicore cable) it's usually/often impossible to 'instruct it' to only provide bonding or to only provide earthing (i.e. the cable "does not know why it's there") - in practice it will usually/often serve both those purposes to some extent.

If Main Bonding is actually required (i.e. if an 'extraneous-conductive part' which enters a building may introduce earth potential) then bonding it to the MET not only provides 'bonding' but also provides 'earthing' to anything in electrical continuity with the bonded extraneous-c-p or MET - if there were previously 'no earth', that bit of G/Y cable will provide at least some degree of an 'earth'; if there previously were an earth connected connected to the MET, the bit of G/Y cable will 'improve' it (reduce impedance to earth).​
If any conductor is installed to connect, directly or indirectly, something to the MET with the purpose of 'earthing' (i.e. a "CPC") , then that will, as well as providing earthing', partially 'bond' the something (and anything else in electrical continuity with it) to the MET (and everything else in electrical continuity with the MET) - i.e. reduce the potential difference between any two of those things under certain fault conditions.​

By sort-of analogy ... one can apply a protective treatment (e.g. anti-rot or anti-rust product) to a material (wood or metal) OR one can apply a coating (e.g. paint) for aesthetic reasons ... but one cannot tell the anti-rot/rust product not to have an aesthetic effect or tell the paint not to offer any protection - both products do at least 'a bit of both' :-)

Kind Regards, John

 

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