Wiring for new HIVE system

Joined
14 Jun 2022
Messages
5
Reaction score
1
Country
United Kingdom
Hi Forum.
This is my first post so hello all and apologies for the long post but I need your help to get my head around the following....

Just moved into an old property and it would be an understatement to say that it needs "work".
Plumbing and Electrics are pretty poor so I am trying to sort it out with the help of qualified plumber and electrician.


Major job is to remove the old gravity system and replace it with an unvented pressurised system. I am also moving the location of cylinder, pump etc from 1st floor bathroom (to free up installation of new design of bathroom) and move it to the cellar close to the boiler. The Ideal HE15 is already located in the cellar.

In the next phase I will be replacing the ground floor radiators with wet UFH. This will be done in phases as building works progress including an extension leaving radiators on 1st floor only

I would like to install HIVE for the hot water and remaining radiators and then use HIVE for the future underfloor heating I'm installing.

So my questions are:

My electrician is not experienced with HIVE and is happy to run cables and connect but has asked me to provide more accurate wiring diagrams. Has anyone got a definitive wiring diagram for dual receiver for boiler and cylinder system please?

I dont mind running completely new cabling and get rid of any old work to be sure its all good for the future but do I need to retain any old part of the wiring system?


From what I've read on other posts the HIVE can run off the fused spur to the boiler. I looked at my boiler and predictably there is no fused spur. Its live supply runs from 1st floor junction box (in current cylinder cupboard) all the way to cellar and directly into the boiler without fuse protection. It shouldn't be a problem to run a new cable to the boiler from a spare way on the consumer unit and then connect off that supply - is that OK?

Is it ok to put the receiver in the cellar in terms of communication between the room stat and receiver? How do they communicate?
Or do I need to have the receiver near my broadband hub? I understand I need the HIVE HUB near the broadband hub but not sure about the receiver.
It would be tidy and easier to house the receiver near the boiler

It looks like I dont have any kind of wiring centre ( which is probably why the current room stat doesn't work) so presumably I need to add a wiring centre for the pump, 2 port valves etc? Any recommendations please?


Next is the UFH system - The company supply the system have quoted for their own wiring centre and and room stats along with manifold and valves for each loop.

If I am using HIVE to control the UFH, which components to I need the UFC company to supply. My understanding is I need a HIVE single channel receiver and mini stat for each UFH zone but how do they connect to the actuator valves to open/close each loop? Do I need to buy the wiring centre from the UFH company or do the HIVE receivers do the same job?

I know its a long post and grateful for any pointers. tips or help so I can get this project off the ground.



Thanks
 
Sponsored Links
Joined
7 Jul 2010
Messages
38,637
Reaction score
4,721
Location
Retired to:
Country
Portugal
Hive is no different to any other control system except that the thermostat is remote and not connected with wires.

The base receiver unit requires L & N plus an output wire (switched on by the remote thermostat) which controls the valve which in turn switches on the boiler and pump.

You could wire the items direct but it is better to have a wiring centre (which is just a lot of connectors) to which all the cables are run.

If you treat each zone separately one at a time it will seem a lot easier.
 
Joined
14 Jun 2022
Messages
5
Reaction score
1
Country
United Kingdom
Thanks EFL for your comments
Is it ok to put receiver in cellar with controller upstairs on ground floor?

Is the attached diagram accurate?
 

Attachments

  • Hive Wiring - Upload_Page.jpg
    Hive Wiring - Upload_Page.jpg
    309.3 KB · Views: 47
Joined
7 Jul 2010
Messages
38,637
Reaction score
4,721
Location
Retired to:
Country
Portugal
If, by controller, you mean the remote thermostat then yes - as long as the signal can get through.
 
Sponsored Links
Joined
7 Jul 2010
Messages
38,637
Reaction score
4,721
Location
Retired to:
Country
Portugal
The diagram looks alright at a quick glance.

I haven't look up the boiler. Does it require a permanent supply for over-running itself or the pump?
 
Joined
11 Jan 2010
Messages
7,969
Reaction score
660
Location
London
Country
United Kingdom
My electrician is not experienced with HIVE and is happy to run cables and connect but has asked me to provide more accurate wiring diagrams. Has anyone got a definitive wiring diagram for dual receiver for boiler and cylinder system please?
I would have thought you could get that from Hive themselves.
From what I've read on other posts the HIVE can run off the fused spur to the boiler. I looked at my boiler and predictably there is no fused spur. Its live supply runs from 1st floor junction box (in current cylinder cupboard) all the way to cellar and directly into the boiler without fuse protection. It shouldn't be a problem to run a new cable to the boiler from a spare way on the consumer unit and then connect off that supply - is that OK?
Put one in then. It does not need a new cable to the CU. It can go in the existing cable near the boiler.
Is it ok to put the receiver in the cellar in terms of communication between the room stat and receiver? How do they communicat
By radio.
Or do I need to have the receiver near my broadband hub? I understand I need the HIVE HUB near the broadband hub but not sure about the receiver.
It would be tidy and easier to house the receiver near the boiler
Depends upon the path between the two. Thick walls etc can attenuate radio signals.
It looks like I dont have any kind of wiring centre ( which is probably why the current room stat doesn't work) so presumably I need to add a wiring centre for the pump, 2 port valves etc? Any recommendations please?
A wiring centre is typically a length of choc block in a plastic box. An easy DIY project.
Next is the UFH system - The company supply the system have quoted for their own wiring centre and and room stats along with manifold and valves for each loop.

If I am using HIVE to control the UFH, which components to I need the UFC company to supply. My understanding is I need a HIVE single channel receiver and mini stat for each UFH zone but how do they connect to the actuator valves to open/close each loop? Do I need to buy the wiring centre from the UFH company or do the HIVE receivers do the same job?

I know its a long post and grateful for any pointers. tips or help so I can get this project off the ground.



Thanks
Best to ask the company. Anything you supply yourself won't be covered by their warrenty.
 
Joined
27 Jan 2008
Messages
19,985
Reaction score
1,958
Location
Llanfair Caereinion, Nr Welshpool
Country
United Kingdom
The guy who designs a central heating system is called "A heating and ventilation engineer". Engineer means over level 3 education, and he uses his knowledge to work out what will work in your property.

The first question has to be type of water heater, I will call it a boiler, although they don't we hope boil the water, some boilers just turn on/off, some modulate i.e. turn up and down, and some work far better if the coolant, (water) is a low temperature, the electric heat pump for example.

Under floor heating typically runs at under 30ºC so is very good when used with heat pumps, as long of course nothing else needs water hotter, but UFH is slow to respond, so can't be used with geofencing, it simply takes too long to heat up, on the other end of the scale the fan assisted radiator is very fast, and can also be used for cooling and well as heating.

But before you jump and say I'll have fan assisted you need to look at cost, it is rather expensive, so in the main central heating is a compromise, and you talk to the heating and ventilation engineer and he advises what will suit you, not only home but life style matters, there is no best or worst, it is what suits you.

In the main we use the TRV to control room temperatures, and a programmable TRV starts at around £20 and goes up to £80 once it has algorithms built in and links to the wall thermostat or hub. The UFH uses a manifold, controller, and second pump, and a thermostat in each room, it uses a unit like this 1655222188368.png to control each zone, not too expensive at around £75 but clearly takes some wiring up.

In the main an oil boiler is on/off, a gas boiler is modulated, and a solid fuel boiler needs a heat store, heat pumps want low circulation temperature and simply can't see point of electric boiler.

There is nothing wrong with thermo-syphon, you can still have independent DHW and CH if you want, the main decision is with gas modulating boilers how to control radiator output, with a 5 speed fan better is plumbed in series, with a TRV better in parallel.

I tried UFH it was electric not hydraulic (water) but the problem is at 27ºC only way is for it to run 24/7, from switch on to floor warm looking at 2 hours, and room warm at least 4 hours, great for an old peoples home where you don't want hot radiators, not so good if you want to turn off while at work, and even not going to work, I want home cooler when in bed than when sitting watching TV, and it is just too slow to respond.

However as a back ground heat it can work, so UFH set to keep room at say 16ºC and when in use a small radiator boosts it to 20ºC, but that means whole system is doubled up, my bother-in-law had a heat store with solid fuel, solar, LPG, all feeding into same system it seemed great, but was fitted on the new build so had reinforced floors for water storage tanks etc, and cost around £21K and it is unlikely you will every recover that cost.

So step one is decide how much your going to spend, then decide what system will fit your budget.
 
Joined
7 Jul 2010
Messages
38,637
Reaction score
4,721
Location
Retired to:
Country
Portugal
You confused me by putting Hive on the programmer.

Won't you need a timer for the water heating?
 
Joined
27 Jan 2008
Messages
19,985
Reaction score
1,958
Location
Llanfair Caereinion, Nr Welshpool
Country
United Kingdom
A gas boiler can be modulated using either a modulating thermostat, like OpenTherm, or return hot water, Hive using the return hot water and the TRV is the bit that does all the work, the wall thermostat takes instructions from the TRV called a demand for heat, and as long as the room where Hive is fitted does not exceed 22ºC it will turn on the boiler when a TRV calls for heat.

This means the wall thermostat must be mounted in a room kept cool, as the whole system falls over if the room with wall thermostat exceeds 22ºC.

The Drayton Wiser, and Honeywell Evohome are far better, both have the option to fit an opentherm module, Hive does not, however at least Hive does connect to the TRV heads, Nest does have opentherm but does not connect to TRV heads, so also a bit useless, EPH is as far as I know the only one where the wall thermostats are set as master and slaves, and will work with OpenTherm and zone valves.

Tado it seems can work with OpenTherm and TRV heads, but finding out what it does is hard.
 
Joined
27 Jan 2008
Messages
19,985
Reaction score
1,958
Location
Llanfair Caereinion, Nr Welshpool
Country
United Kingdom
You confused me by putting Hive on the programmer.

Won't you need a timer for the water heating?
Hive twin zone will work hot water, Drayton do a triple with Wiser so two zones and DHW, but only the single zone works with OpenTherm. Hive is specially designed to work with thermo-syphon one output works boiler other output works pump, with volt free contacts you don't need this option.
 
Joined
14 Jun 2022
Messages
5
Reaction score
1
Country
United Kingdom
Your electrician may not know Hive, but does your plumber?
My plumber is not familiar with HIVE. In the main though he's asked that I organise a sparks because we are moving the whole system from 1st floor to cellar so a new electrical supply will be required to be run to the location of pump, 2 port valves etc.
 
  • Thanks
Reactions: CBW
Joined
27 Jan 2008
Messages
19,985
Reaction score
1,958
Location
Llanfair Caereinion, Nr Welshpool
Country
United Kingdom
The Hive wall thermostat is no more than two relays which turn on either motorised valves, boiler or pump depending on your system, if your plumber and electrician don't understand this, then I would be looking for ones who do.

If your doing it just say so, and then say what you have, are you using Y, W, or S plan, etc.

Nothing wrong with the diagram you show, it is simply a relay.

The problem which I don't know answer to is how you get the UFH to turn on the boiler, you don't show that bit.
 

DIYnot Local

Staff member

If you need to find a tradesperson to get your job done, please try our local search below, or if you are doing it yourself you can find suppliers local to you.

Select the supplier or trade you require, enter your location to begin your search.


Are you a trade or supplier? You can create your listing free at DIYnot Local

 
Sponsored Links
Top