Zion and the Art of Armageddon

Benjamn's comments have changed again. It now goes the deal is an attempt to stop them invading Rafar. Something that none of the external parties including us want to happen. All say no one way or another.

BBC interviewed an ex Israeli diplomat. He threw another option in. Benjamin not expecting HAMAS to agree to anything. Also the other similar HAMAS idea knowing it wouldn't be accepted. He then outlined Benjamin's situation with his public. A very high proportion want shut if him. Some of that is down to the attack even happening. I'd guess another factor as well - they knew that HAMAS was up to something before the attack.

Grapevine. US has refused the supply of certain precision weapons to Israel. Boeing mentioned though. ;)Maybe they have bits fall off as per their aircraft.
 
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Nothing unusual That’s war

You can’t have journalists just wandering around doing as they please / going we’re they please

Some thing the Americans discovered in the Vietnam war
You're wrong on this, the level of press freedom in Gaza is massively worse than in Iraq, Afghanistan or any other war waged by a NATO force.

Israel is not following usual practice for western nations, they are following Russian/Dictatorship rules.
 
You're wrong on this, the level of press freedom in Gaza is massively worse than in Iraq, Afghanistan or any other war waged by a NATO force.

Israel is not following usual practice for western nations, they are following Russian/Dictatorship rules.
Dunno what you mean by I am wrong ??
Any country waging a war would be advised to try and control the press or preferably stop any press turning up at all unless they are favourable to you ??

Problem today is mobile type phones ect

The Americans were un able or incapable of controling the press in Vietnam ??
 
Any country waging a war would be advised to try and control the press or preferably stop any press turning up at all unless they are favourable to you ??
Let The Wail et al feed you right wing r'tards bullshít and let the rest of us receive honest unbiassed reports.

Simple.
 
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Let The Wail et al feed you right wing r'tards bullshít and let the rest of us receive honest unbiassed reports.

Simple.


Don’t read the wail

Never bought the wail
You seem to be the resident expert on the wail
:giggle:

If you have an issue with the wail ? Stop reading it and stop buying it ??
 
Benjamn's comments have changed again. It now goes the deal is an attempt to stop them invading Rafar. Something that none of the external parties including us want to happen. All say no one way or another. BBC interviewed an ex Israeli diplomat. He threw another option in. Benjamin not expecting HAMAS to agree to anything. Also the other similar HAMAS idea knowing it wouldn't be accepted. He then outlined Benjamin's situation with his public. A very high proportion want shut if him. Some of that is down to the attack even happening. I'd guess another factor as well - they knew that HAMAS was up to something before the attack.

“The heart of the dispute has revolved for months around a single question. Hamas demands that any deal include the end to the war and a full retreat of Israeli troops from the Gaza Strip, backed by guarantees … Netanyahu refuses to agree to this, because it would mean admitting his failure to achieve the war’s stated aims and could therefore open a political hornet’s nest,” wrote the Haaretz analyst Amos Harel.

I'd argue the heart of the dispute is the refusal of Israel to recognise the right of Palestine to exist in the first place...and vice versa. Perhaps a large mirror can be deployed in the Golan to help them out with this simple confusion.
 
Saudi Arabia has refused to recognize Israel since the Jewish state’s founding in 1948. The Sunni kingdom backed other Arab countries in their early wars with Israel and was long a strong supporter of the Palestinian cause. In recent years, however, as the Israeli-Palestinian stalemate has dragged on and Iran’s regional influence has grown, Saudi priorities have shifted. Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman, now Saudi Arabia’s de facto leader, is also reportedly less attached to the Palestinian cause than his father, King Salman. Riyadh has also cut its financial aid to the Palestinian Authority.

Just last September, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu announced in a speech at the United Nations that his country was “at the cusp” of a “historic peace” with Saudi Arabia and Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman told Fox News that “every day we get closer” to normalization. The stumbling block that prevented it from happening back then was the Palestinian issue: While Netanyahu badly wanted the deal, it wasn’t clear he was willing or politically able, given his hard-right coalition, to give enough ground on the issue of a two-state solution to satisfy either the Saudis or the Americans.

(The September speech was the probable cause for the attacks in Israel on October 7th.)

The sought-after prize for Biden's administration’s Mideast diplomacy has been, as it was for Trump’s, an ambitious three-way normalization deal. As part of the agreement, the US would give Saudi Arabia security guarantees modeled on the defense pacts it has with non-NATO countries like Japan and South Korea. According to a column this week from the New York Times’ Tom Friedman, the US and Saudi sides are “90 percent done with the mutual defense treaty.” The deal also reportedly includes US assistance to help Saudi Arabia build a civilian nuclear program, something that the country has long sought for its own economy, but which critics fear could be converted quickly into a weapons program. The deal may also include US investments in Saudi Arabia’s technology sector and a pledge by the Saudis to continue pricing their oil in US dollars rather than Chinese currency.

A deal like this with the United States would be a big ask for any country; the US hasn’t agreed to a pact like this with any country since Japan in 1960, and much less one as controversial as Saudi Arabia, which only recently extricated itself from a long and brutal war in neighboring Yemen and has had diplomatic crises with several other countries in recent years. The Biden administration may believe the deal is worthwhile on purely realist national security grounds, but likely the only way it could be sold in Congress — particularly among members of Biden’s own party, who have generally been more critical of the Saudis — is if it’s tied to meaningful progress toward Israeli-Palestinian peace.

The official Saudi position, dating back to a 2002 agreement known as the Arab Peace Initiative, is that it will establish relations with Israel only after the “establishment of a sovereign independent Palestinian state.” Israel wouldn’t have to go quite that far in the deal under discussion — nor is there any chance it would — but it would have to commit to what Blinken has called a “practical pathway” toward a Palestinian state. It’s not clear exactly what this pathway would look like in practice, but to satisfy the Saudis, the Israeli commitment toward restarting two-state talks would have to be “very serious,” Ali Shihabi, a Saudi commentator and analyst close to the royal court, told Vox

This was the main stumbling block when the three parties appeared close to an agreement last fall. Netanyahu has boasted of preventing the establishment of a Palestinian state and at times has supported fully annexing the West Bank. Still, as strident as he can sound, Netanyahu’s firmly held positions should be taken with a grain of salt: He also briefly accepted the idea of Palestinian statehood, in principle, with significant conditions and limitations, back in 2009.

But the same cannot be said of his right-wing coalition partners. In particular, Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich, himself a West Bank settler, “would rather jump off the Azrieli Tower than agree to land transfers,” David Makovsky, an expert on Arab-Israeli relations at the Washington Institute for Near East Policy, told me last September, referring to a well-known Tel Aviv skyscraper. Accepting this deal could mean Netanyahu losing his coalition and then his job, which, given his current legal troubles, could land him back in court or even jail.
 
The Americans were un able or incapable of controling the press in Vietnam ??
The press showed the effects of the US attacks far more graphically than they would these days. Also actions of the bad boys. Fact is the US lost. 58,000 odd US body bags and antiwar protests. Any war usually brings on protests. Probably S Vietnam troop losses as well. Another factor
There is a link to the papers on that page. Rather a lot of data. In real terms probably a war analysis for guidance in the future. Anyway want to know the effect of napalm on a kid - you will have seen a photo. Also say a bad boy shooting someone in the head and etc.
To my mind this war was more like WWII than what usually happens these days. Troop losses in that one were acceptable and numbers pretty horrific. WWI far worse when the detail is looked into, That war led to Israel. Arab country carve up between UK and France. It also influenced when WWII started.
 
Still, while talks on normalization were paused for a time after the attacks, all three sides have indicated that they’re still interested in a deal. The past few days have consistently brought new comments from diplomats saying an agreement may be imminent. In what may be a sign of its seriousness, Saudi Arabia has even stepped up its arrests of citizens who’ve criticized Israel and the United States online. Shihabi predicts that any public backlash to normalization would be manageable since “people understand that the Saudi normalization is the only card of leverage the Palestinians have with the Israelis.”

“I would not be surprised if [Netanyahu has] reached the conclusion that this coalition has outlived its usefulness,” said Nimrod Novik, a former foreign policy adviser to Prime Minister Shimon Peres now with the Israel Policy Forum. Novik laid out a scenario in which Netanyahu could form a new coalition government with more mainstream partners “to replace the lunatics in return for going for the Saudi regional package, including a serious change in policy vis-a-vis the Palestinian Authority.” Still, he noted that there was no evidence such a plan was actually in the works.

It all sounds very neat: the war ends, the two-state solution gets back on track, two key US allies end 75 years of bitter rivalry. But making it happen requires quite a few things to go right, and without a lot of time to spare. A ceasefire would have to be reached in Gaza, the issue of Hamas’s Israeli hostages would have to be resolved, and an agreement on Palestinian statehood would have to be found that would satisfy both the Saudis and their critics in the Democratic Party. Making that happen might very well require Israel to form a new government.
 
Don’t read the wail

Never bought the wail
You seem to be the resident expert on the wail
:giggle:

If you have an issue with the wail ? Stop reading it and stop buying it ??
I'll continue to read some of their articles that pop up on my news feed page (PC), as it's free. Same old gammon baiting dross though.
Buy The Wail?
I'm not that stupid, lol.
 
there are 2 wars going on in Gaza and one of em is the propaganda war

Hamas have done quite well in that campaign (?)
Some one once said that the pen is mightier than the sword.
In wartime that is true.
 
I'd argue the heart of the dispute is the refusal of Israel to recognise the right of Palestine to exist in the first place...and vice versa.
Al J have the Haaratz man on from time to time. He is a little worried about his own position following the AlJ ban.
It's pretty clear that HAMAS has no alternative to allowing Israel to exist but follow the propaganda if you like. Islamic Jehad? Probably mad men thinking they can get rid of it. Others may be similar. ISIS is also around.

Your other post. Hang on. The Arab League have had a meeting and come up with a consensus view. I have long wondered about the Arab view since this started. Blinken bounces about and no details come out. AlJ translated their views expressed in an economic meeting where Gaza was a hot topic. They clearly want the 2nd state. No change at all really.

The really tricky part is what form that state should have. Go back to the Oslo accord worked out in secret so we don't have full details Israel is responsible for security yet there is still a PA army. It's scope of influence is severly limited and it's had no effect at all on Israeli expansion. Along come HAMAS when elected and Israel claims they no longer have the PA to protect them and Gaza gets a pretty tight embargo. Real reason is obvious. The PA set up wont have been any different to how it is now in the West Bank.

Now switch to Benjamin and his don't trust gentiles. He has a secondary problem if the HAMAS political wing finishes up in with some influence on the governance of a 2nd state. He sees it as he has lost and HAMAS has won. Then comes the aim to wipe HAMAS out. A military view on that is that it's not possible to wipe out an idea with force. There is also the 12months Benj feels is needed to clean it up. Just how sure can he be about that? Attacks carry on all over the place even in some places they have stated that they have finished.

MOSAD etc comment that they don't see an attack on Rafar as a good idea. This seems to come from Israeli press. Think back to empire days and uprisings. One view of the person who finishes up in the resultant politics is that they must have spent some time in prison. Nice simple way of putting it. Pass but the US took a Yemen group off the terrorist list not all that long ago. It looked like it had been causing the Saudi some problems.

US attitude on Gaza. Not possible to have a clear idea of what it really is.
 
A International Press Association person passed a comment about how the final deal will look. Sounds correct, We know the general idea. Phased and hostage releases etc. The final one if it occurs will be much the same. Problems.
1) Israel seeing this as a solution. He thinks they will eventually as in some respects their achievements are dubious in various ways. Correct really. War of words and actually finishing off HAMAS's army.

2)HAMAS. Seems he heard the same as me. The US wants shut of them. Might fit in with Filly and US telling Qatar to expel the HAMAS political people there. I'm not at all sure the US could make that happen other than by agreement. I also heard another country would be prepared to take them. Get rid of them Well funded etc. I wonder. They have held a ceasefire in the past but geopolitics figure.

The crossings are interesting. The goods one has always had an IDF area there - odd Reuters report. Now the Rafar one also has which may well mean Egypt has lost control of it. Achieving that on the Rafar one suggests Israel went in further than early reports suggested, Anyway the bombs continue and no aid at all is getting in. Miles of trucks waiting. Not that this is unusual. Fuel runs out shortly which means no water and more hospital problems for the few left. Seems one in Rafar has been totally abandoned. Must be close to the crossing or ??????????

More noises about the US withholding weapons supply to Israel. All from unnamed sources and it seems mostly in Israeli press. US wont comment. US protests in New York look like they are getting bigger. In the streets now.
 
I'll continue to read some of their articles that pop up on my news feed page (PC), as it's free. Same old gammon baiting dross though.
Buy The Wail?
I'm not that stupid, lol.

Dunno what you are on about noseall but

You want to read the wail than you crack on
No need for any guilt complex or shame :giggle:
 
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