label
- Thread starter 333rocky333
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And in my defence I was correct by the 16th edition
1992 red book
1992 red book
sorry was that for me
what reg is that
I mentioned 514-11-01
I cannot see "supply" or "circuits " mentioned in that.
514-11-01
IMO
That mentions LIVE PARTS not capable of being isolated by a single isolating device, that is why TWO circuits would warrant a label.
I agree the main switch could do the job, but with say a 48 way board in a hospital would that be practical.
As for 461-01-03 which I did not mention
IMO
That mentions LIVE PARTS this time equipment or in an enclosure, again I would say ,if there was TWO seperate circuits , that would warrant a label for the same reason above.
GRANTED
I slipped up with the example of the 4oov stickers sometimes not being supplied, but in the early 16th you did have to buy them seperate and fit them and a lot of people still go above the regs and do so now.
Whoops... posted before reading all previous responses. (Well, it is early!)
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The last time somebody said that all hell was let loose...
Only if the two separate circuits can't be isolated by one single device.
I see that as if both circuits are fed from the same board then the main isolator on the board provides that function.
1) If the purpose of a warning notice is to draw attention to an unusual or unexpected situation in which the usual procedures are insufficient, and you don't provide such a notice, how will people know that to work on that part of the installation they need to use the main switch to isolate all of it?
2) Do you think that making people use the main switch makes it easier to maintain the installation?
2) Do you think that making people use the main switch makes it easier to maintain the installation?
If they follow the simple rules of safe isolation then all should be well. This shouldn't be a problem for a competent person.
Two gang light switch serving hall and landing fed from both downstairs and upstairs (2 separate circuits). Would you fit a warning label or would the main isolator provide the function that 461-01-03 requires?
This being a DIY Forum, I think we need to keep things within the context of the Forum. A 48 way board in a hospital requires careful design, in particular as regards future inspection and testing. But any work will be undertaken by a competent person.
My comments in this thread and others have explicitly made the distinction between typical domestic installations and commercial/industrial installations.
BS7671 applies to all the above but some Regs may or may not be relevant nor applied in the same way (spirit). It's important to think about a REG within the context of the installation and situation at hand and not to goose step forward regardless.
The 400V sticker is explicitily required by 514-10-01 in BS7671 and is not (directly) related to this discussion.
The Main Switch in a typical domestic installation is the only device which can be (almost) totally relied upon to offer the function of isolation - in particular to remove the danger of borrowed neutrals should parts of the installation be isolated by individual mcb/fuses (typically with bodged lighting circuits!!).
DIYers should not take any chances and EWR1989 prevents electricians from working live unless there is no other way to proceed. In a domestic environment, it would have to be an extreme situation not to warrant using the Main Switch. I can't easily think of one. (A fridge would maintain medicine at the correct temperature for long enough).
In reality, any electrical warning labels which clash with home decor are almost certainly to be removed. Hence the Main Switch.
If the discussion is to extend into commerical/industrial applications, perhaps a new thread should be created so that DIYers can choose to ignore it. In such installations charts, diagrams and previous certificates should be available for inspection BEFORE work is carried and persons undertaking any work should familiarise themselves accordingly. Such charts, diagrams, design, certs. should alert the electrician to any potential concerns. If they are incomplete or missing, there is every chance that labels or notices are missing too. As far as I am aware, there are no REGS which recommend action if other REGS are ignored.
I agree that even if there is not an explicit REG for a label or a notice, labels or notices for information only purposes are invaluable and should be encouraged.
Good post Fing.
Sorry.
That was my opinion to the question I was asked.
Just wanted to show the label existed, for the reg I mentioned.
It was more to show anyone reading the other locked post who MAY want some for whatever reason that they do indeed exist.
I indeed use similar on contactor enclosures, where there are circuits and control circuits, both 240v.
And can see no reason why they cant be used in other similar circumstances.
To be honest
I started this thread and nothing I said affected any DIY people.
I never mentioned domestic you did.
And I answered with my view.
Personally any houses I have done have had 1 gang switches in the hall.
So I have not seen that domestic situation .
And there are many that view this site, that are in the trade and may want to discuss more commercial stuff as others did last night quite happily.
If a diy person asks a question i will answer it appropriately
It is in the ELECTRICS UK section.
You have come on going on about double switches and consumer unit main switches.
This is not a continuation of the other thread that , got shut.
So why dont YOU START THE NEW THREAD Rather than confusing the DIY people who may have wanted to read.
By the way did you miss the bit about the 4oov being resolved, or just trying to be contraversial
I agree on an unknown installation the main switch is the safest bet.
However many people especially DIYers just turn off the one circuit either to reduce inconviniance to the rest of the occupants or because they require power while working. We must distinguish between what we do ourselves and what we expect others to do with the installation in the future.
If you interpret the reg as literally as you do it would hardly ever apply and be of no help to those at risk while working on an electrical installation. IMO it is therefore unlikely that the IEE intended it to be interpreted that way.
Also leaving a situation which is unusual and potentially dangerous to someone who doesn't appriciate that it is unusual and not placing appropriate warnings is IMO terrible practice regardless of whether there is a reg explicitly requiring it or not.
That is why I advise using grid switches in this situation, the warning label can be placed on the grid where it is hidden during normal use of the installation but where it will warn anyone who starts to open up the switch before the connections are exposed.
Personally, I would never install nor recommend anyone to install a grid switch in a kitchen on an existing ring final circuit unless there was a very detailed diagram of exactly how the cables had been installed (433-02-04 / 16th).
But I would be genuinely interested in seeing the kind of label you place inside the grid arrangements that you install plus where they go, their wording, and how they cover all live parts until the notice can be read in full. I presume they must be made of a non-conducting material insulated to at least the level of the wiring contained within the enclosure and fitted in such a way so as to prevent accidental contact until the notice is read.
But I would be genuinely interested in seeing the kind of label you place inside the grid arrangements that you install plus where they go, their wording, and how they cover all live parts until the notice can be read in full. I presume they must be made of a non-conducting material insulated to at least the level of the wiring contained within the enclosure and fitted in such a way so as to prevent accidental contact until the notice is read.
Fing rinal
As other people answer YOUR questions ,and you seem to ask a lot.
How comes you never seem to answer other peoples.
As you are concerned about DIY people, why do you confuse other peoples posts.
The label is for use as it says on it
What has grid switches on ring final circuits got to do with my label post anyway.
I would not think anyone would put a ring and another circuit in a grid switch anyway
Someone pointed out very early that gridswitches came with labels
As this was my post I pointed out that they were 400v labels to conform to which , turned out to be a now defunct reg.
You could always start your own post and feel free to say anything then.
Again as you talk of diy
Can you give me a link please to any posts where you have actually solved these DIY peoples problem and been thanked maybe.
As you yourself pointed out it is a diy forum.
As other people answer YOUR questions ,and you seem to ask a lot.
How comes you never seem to answer other peoples.
As you are concerned about DIY people, why do you confuse other peoples posts.
The label is for use as it says on it
What has grid switches on ring final circuits got to do with my label post anyway.
I would not think anyone would put a ring and another circuit in a grid switch anyway
Someone pointed out very early that gridswitches came with labels
As this was my post I pointed out that they were 400v labels to conform to which , turned out to be a now defunct reg.
You could always start your own post and feel free to say anything then.
Again as you talk of diy
Can you give me a link please to any posts where you have actually solved these DIY peoples problem and been thanked maybe.
As you yourself pointed out it is a diy forum.
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