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flueless gas fires

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gasbanni

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 4:45 pm Reply with quote

Whats a cabinet heater if it isnt a fluless gas fire ? valor did a living flame effect cabinet heater they're nat all plaque heater types.

Been about for decades had the asd (Oxypilot equivalent) long befroe nat gas flued fires. Hundreds of fatalities......No, point proved M'lud not guilty !
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transam

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 4:48 pm Reply with quote

Only 1 recorded fatality from a flue less fire & it was not a Burley , as to the fatality it was a combination of sevral things , which I beleive resulted in a change to the relavant British Standard ! there have I believe been more co incidents with condensing boilers ?

Burley flueless fires go through more stringent tests than , most other gas appliances ! ?? the catalytic converter is not a safety device !

A flueless fire is probably safer than many open flued appliances that are fitted in countless homes !
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snugib (18 Aug 2010)
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gasbanni

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 5:08 pm Reply with quote

transam wrote:
Only 1 recorded fatality from a flue less fire & it was not a Burley , as to the fatality it was a combination of sevral things , which I beleive resulted in a change to the relavant British Standard ! there have I believe been more co incidents with condensing boilers ?

Burley flueless fires go through more stringent tests than , most other gas appliances ! ?? the catalytic converter is not a safety device !

A flueless fire is probably safer than many open flued appliances that are fitted in countless homes !


Yes its shocking how many fluless gas appliances are installed in homes and used everday, hundreds of thousands !
As for fatalities....... hardly any ! icon_lol.gif gas cookers !
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mysteryman

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 7:28 pm Reply with quote

I wouldn't use a flueless or a cabinet heater - ever.
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adlplumbing

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 7:42 pm Reply with quote

the dangrous appliance for me is domestic warm air unit
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bengasman

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 9:27 pm Reply with quote

gasbanni wrote:

Yes its shocking how many fluless gas appliances are installed in homes and used everday, hundreds of thousands !
As for fatalities....... hardly any ! icon_lol.gif gas cookers !

I had a nasty burn from one of them the other day.
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fluelessfacts

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2010 8:47 am Reply with quote

Hello again,

Here is the reply I posted previously on page 5 of this blog. I've already been repremanded about the last para regarding 'older fitters', so appologies in advance. Regarding the new questions.

Yes you do need an air vent regardless of the room size.

Over the past 11 years I seem to have spent half my life trying to limit the damage done to these marvelous products from misinformed comment, some from poorly researched speculation, and some from malicious rumor from competitors who regard them as a threat to their flued gas fires.

Safety is of course of paramount importance. Every single flueless fire that Burley has ever produced is bench run for 30 minutes and the combustion recorded (I think this makes us unique in the gas industry). Therefore I literally have more factual evidence regarding flueless fires than probably anyone else on the planet.

Our in house test criteria are 4 times stricter than what British standards allow, but even at these limits the products are designed so that we literally never have one fail.

The valves Burley insists on using are designed so that even if they were adjusted in the field, the maximum flow rate could never overload the catalytic converter.

Every fire is designed so that it must pass all standards even with the cat' disabled.

We have had fires on test for the equivalent of 40 years use. We do everything to try to reproduce extreme conditions of misuse: overloading, spraying polish and solvents into the cat', connecting it to the wrong gas, over pressure, over heating etc etc. Periodically we send a cat' away for analysis. After all this use they are still performing to 100% of their original efficiency. We have NEVER had a cat' fail. Even if one did, it would not pose a risk.

Oxygen depletion sensors and flame failure devices are fitted to all products. If the gas pressure to the appliance increases by more than a couple of millibars the fire cuts off.

The fire which caused the fatality was not a Burley but this is not something to bask in. It is of course a great tragedy to all those involved as well as 'tarring' ALL flueless fire with the same brush. It resulted in standards being changed so this could not happen again.

In Britain there are around 15,000,000 flued gas fires. Heaters with chimneys and flues kill between 20 and 50 people every year, so why don't we hear comments like 'don't fit a flued fire, they're dangerous'? In America there are around 20,000,000 flueless fires which have been in use for up to 20 years, without a single death. In Japan there are around 50,000,000 flueless heaters in use.

Flued heaters rely on the chimney for the fire to operate safely. A chimney is fallible. If a bird builds its nest in it over the summer, or the masonry collapses, the flue could be blocked. The next time the fire is used the combusted gasses will enter the house. A flueless fire does not rely on a chimney to operate, it MUST be designed to burn extremely cleanly and therefore it can provide an unsurpassed level of safety.

For a layman, I think the simplest way to look at it is that a gas cooker is a flueless heater but without a cat' and the strict combustion regulations. A flueless fire is equivalent in output to just one small ring on the cooker.

The other major advantage which flueless fires provide is fuel efficiency. The efficiencies claimed by many flued fires are totally unjustifiable (this is another one of my battlegrounds which I won't get started on). Tests which Burley have carried out show that a flued fire loses around 2/3rds of its heat straight up the chimney. The chimney also draws huge amounts of warm air from the rest of the house, which is replaced by cold air creeping around windows and doors. A flueless fire is 100% efficient, and the warm air tends to radiant outwards to benefit the rest of the house.

If you assume that a gas fire is used for 3 hours per day for 4 months of the year, if all the flued fires in Britain were replaced with flueless, the gas saved would be 23,520,000,000 kWh EVERY year! Regardless of views on global warming, surely it is foolhardy to waste this amount of energy when there is a viable alternative.

I know that all the above information will not change many people’s opinions. Even in the face of incontrovertible facts there will always be an element of 'I've been fitting fires now for 30 years and a mate told me.....'. Strangely it often seems to be older fitters who are extremely set in their ways that can't handle the new technology. Most younger fitters can see how ridiculous it is having to put a hole in the roof to let out the gasses from a heater with bad combustion, along with all the heat.

Just for the record, Burley are a major manufacturer of flued fires AND flueless fires. Financially it does not matter to me which I sell.
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The following 4 users say thank you to fluelessfacts for this useful post:
FiremanT (16 Mar 2012), kirkgas (11 Mar 2012), transam (27 Aug 2010), snugib (27 Aug 2010)
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snugib

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2010 9:31 am Reply with quote

Older Fitters?
I'm retired, and the only one who has been consistantly fighting your corner
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fluelessfacts

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2010 12:27 pm Reply with quote

I know you are, hence the apology!
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gas4you

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2010 12:46 pm Reply with quote

Facts produced by a manufacturer with a vested financial interest are worthless IMO.

With a 100cm air vent, cold air will always be drawn in the room, so that negates the 100% efficiency claim in my book.
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fluelessfacts

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2010 2:09 pm Reply with quote

Better than uninformed speculation without any facts.
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bengasman

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2010 3:30 pm Reply with quote

fluelessfacts wrote:
Better than uninformed speculation without any facts.

Methinks Dave has installed a few more fires than you can claim to have done. I'd take the word of a man on the tools any day over that of a salesman or a pencil pusher.
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snugib

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2010 4:28 pm Reply with quote

And what does this man on the tools know about the safaty of these fires. If they are dangerous where is the evidence.
Its just peoples dyed in the wool perceptions. "Oh" it has not got a flue therefore it must be dangerous" They do not consider the science or engineering behind the design. Its ill thought out perceptions.
Like saying bungee jumping is dangerous. It is not!
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FiremanT (16 Mar 2012), fluelessfacts (29 Aug 2010), transam (27 Aug 2010)
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peterperfection

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 4:19 pm Reply with quote

Could anyone explain to me- just how the catolitic converter works ?
I have just removed my troublesome flueless fire and decided to take a look at it .
I noticed the 'cat' was positioned in the middle of the outlet vent and only covered 50% of that area . So- seems like another 50% of warm air has by-passed the cat.
Also- the cat to me looked like a ceramic rectangular structure with just holes in the middle .
I'd love to find out just how it works .
Does anyone know ?
regards, Pete
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middlesbrough

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 5:22 pm Reply with quote

snugib wrote:
Transam
There has to be more than 3 of us. must be a lot of closet installers, afraid to come out.


I dont accually know anyone thats fitted one , they do come accross as a B and Q gas fire . Its not out of the realms of posserbility that alot are getting fitted by the DIY'er.

The sooner gas appliances can only be bought by GRI the better .!
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