From the examiners

[dingbat]

I would imagine that 85 / 90% would be a better pass mark, saying that, shouldn't you know more like 98%+ of what you are doing?

I can realistically state that if you made that the pass mark, the pass rate would be down to about 5%! (Many of those who pass do so by the skin of their teeth.)

(I won't say how we know - trade secret - but we do know roughly what mark each of our students is likely to get. It's one of the reasons we get the best pass rates in the country.)

 

[1john]

Compare this with driving - society is quite happy to allow people to drive around in a killing machine after passing a test, yet hardly anybody would say they are fully competent drivers.

When I passed my test, the examiner told me that it didn't mean I knew how to drive, just that I knew enough to be allowed to carry on learning unsupervised.

You should have told him to mind his own F---ing business!

 

[mikhailfaradayski]

on a similar note,

I recall doing my 2381 for the 17th,

there were 12 of us on the course- two sole traders, me and a.n.other, then 10 guys from a national company.

It turns out that the 10 guys were the inspectors for the company from various regions, one of whom was (apparently) the head tester for his region. They were all of an age where you would expect a good level of experience (were not talking about fresh faced youngsters).

It was alarming the amount of time us 2 sole traders looked at each other with raised eyebrows (y'know, this one -- ) at the almost total lack of understanding of testing procedure displayed by these guys. I would say the head tester was about the worst, im not even sure he passed the multiple guess test

 

[dingbat]

I competly[sic] disagree with you but only from personal experience of myself and two apprentices which I had.

That may well be because of your mentoring, or your selection process. It certainly isn't the norm.

 

[bernardgreen]

(yet hardly anybody would say they are fully competent drivers.)

Once most people on the road were motorists who understood the vehicle they were driving and the effects of road and weather on the safe limits. Now the majority on the road are car users who have no idea how the car works.

Like wise there are too many tool users and not enough tradesmen in many trades and professions.

Tradesmen and motorists THINK about what they are doing, car and tool users do not think ( some cannot think ) about what they are doing as they do ( can only do ) what they have been taught to do by rote.

 

[dingbat]

It was alarming the amount of time us 2 sole traders looked at each other with raised eyebrows (y'know, this one -- ) at the almost total lack of understanding of testing procedure displayed by these guys.

There you go.

Welcome to my world!

 

[ban-all-sheds]

The fundamental skills of how to on their own are not sufficient, the skill to perform needs to be supported by a fundamental understanding of what is being tested and why it is being tested.

That doesn't apply only to testing.

//search.diynot.com/forum_sear...hor=ban-all-sheds&search=Search+Forum&stype=0

 

[mikhailfaradayski]

It was alarming the amount of time us 2 sole traders looked at each other with raised eyebrows (y'know, this one -- ) at the almost total lack of understanding of testing procedure displayed by these guys.

There you go.

Welcome to my world!

haha, where i did my 2391, (different place to my 2381) i was asked by the tutor to apply there as they needed someone on board. Sounded nice and cushy - clean, half day friday, just down the road, 5 wks hols. I felt as though my experience (at the time) wasn't really sufficient to do service to teaching the subject i was only just there to take anyway.

Some years down the road, having spoken to and read stuff from many other sparkies, i have realised how naive i was and after spending half of this week in fibreglass, i realise i should have applied

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I would imagine that 85 / 90% would be a better pass mark, saying that, shouldn't you know more like 98%+ of what you are doing?

I can realistically state that if you made that the pass mark, the pass rate would be down to about 5%!

So?

 

[dingbat]

I would imagine that 85 / 90% would be a better pass mark, saying that, shouldn't you know more like 98%+ of what you are doing?

I can realistically state that if you made that the pass mark, the pass rate would be down to about 5%!

So?

So, it would never happen.

Can you imagine City & Guilds supporting a qualification that almost nobody could pass? I don't know of any other qualifications with such a low pass rate as it is.

(Edit: See Birmingham's driving test passes! http://www.driving-test-success.com/dsa_driving_test_centre_pass_rates.htm )

Can you imagine the fuss if A-level pass-rates reverted to what they used to be, when they were A-levels?

 

[EngStudent]

So, it would never happen.

But these people are meant to be ensuring the safety of others. By their, lets face it, lack of basic understanding of what they're doing, they're putting property and lives at risk. If 1 in 20 passes then so what? The other 19 should think 'hang on, this is my livelihood and I need to actually understand what's going on'.

Put it this way; as a student you wouldn't get people coming and asking me to design a collision avoidance system for aircraft, simply because I don't have the knowledge and experience to safely do so. Why are these people able to put millions of lives at risk because they don't understand fully something that they do for a living?

 

[dingbat]

Why are these people able to put millions of lives at risk because they don't understand fully something that they do for a living?

Because (sadly ) very few people actually die as a result of inadequate understanding of the dangers of electricity or the design requirements of electrical systems.

At the working level of 'electrician' as opposed to 'electrical engineer', we get away with it.

(Consider the recent post about the 'tingle' in the shower; the plumber thought he knew what he was doing and the client understands the issue so poorly she seems willing to put up with an unidentified current passing through her body. Because the shower still works, so it must just be a 'minor technicality'.)

 

[riveralt]

Remember that this is a closed book written examination lasting 3 hours (I think) that forms one part of a two part examination process - you have to pass this written and the practical exams to pass the overall exam.

There is no target pass mark in the written exam because, despite tutors trying to second guess, each exam is different.

This doen't just apply to 2391 it applies to all examinations.
If C&G follow standard examination processes then once each 2391 paper is set, it is taken by a number of test subjects - quite often examiners and tutors themselves. This is done to ensure fairness to all candidates both past and present and allows required standards to be maintained. The pass mark is set against how difficult the questions are and not against a target number that must pass.
So where written papers are considered easier than others then the pass mark will be higher or lower when the paper is considered harder.

It is sometimes the case that unusually low pass rates can be attributed to a change in examination style - note that that is style not content. This is where the tutors who just use past papers come unstuck because their students expect to be presented with say a RFC test process in a certain way.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

So, it would never happen.

Can you imagine City & Guilds supporting a qualification that almost nobody could pass? I don't know of any other qualifications with such a low pass rate as it is.

Maybe a 5% pass rate is too extreme, but nobody should have a problem with the pass mark being reasonably high, and everybody should have a problem with too many incompetents scraping through.

Can you imagine the fuss if A-level pass-rates reverted to what they used to be, when they were A-levels?

Yes.

I can also imagine how we would then end up with much less of a problem funding universities because we would have done away with the absolutely ludicrous idea that everybody has a right to a university education if that's what they want.

And hopefully we would have done away with the pernicious notion that recognising that some people are more able than others is elitism.

 

[dingbat]

I can also imagine how we would then end up with much less of a problem funding universities because we would have done away with the absolutely ludicrous idea that everybody has a right to a university education if that's what they want.

And hopefully we would have done away with the pernicious notion that recognising that some people are more able than others is elitism.

Ban, you are quoting from the manifesto of the United Dingdom Party!