Legal aspect of Electrics in a commercial setting

[seasickstevie]

I quite agree JohnW2

Sometimes I think BAS forgets to take his medication.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Perhaps you should take note of my earlier replies, and the fact that I didn't call the OP an idiot until he had wholeheartedly demonstrated that he was by persisting in complete denial of the fact that he's legally required to be competent.

 

[morg]

Thanks, it's no worries, I am a bit of idiot - But I would never dream of carrying out Electrical work in a workplace - I just thought the work I had in mind deemed to be fairly simplistic and acceptable to be carried out - Obviously I was wrong!

They are not fixed appliances. And plugging them in does not go against the guidance in the Wiring Regulations.

I still cannot understand (as an idiot) - Why is a "3kW Portable Electric Heater" classed a 'Fixed Appliance'?

My job includes going to many workplaces and I've seen portable electric heaters being used in office's etc, I guess they all must be breaking the HSE guidelines.

Anyways, while freezing our balls off down there, I took these earlier regarding the recently fitted Electric Door...

View media item 41675
View media item 41676
View media item 41677(note conduit collapse, good job door frame was there!

If you think this is my doing, you'd be insulting me! And to prove this is not my doing, if I did install this as a diy job and illegally I would have added a compression gland to the trunking and secured the conduit with plugs and screws.

I wonder how much of this goes on out there in commercial buildings, surely whoever fitted this is not a Qualified Electrician - Do you agree?

 

[Aragorn84]

A portable heater IS a non-fixed appliance.

What you've suggested however is not a portable heater, its a heater thats bolted to the wall, ie fixed.

AFAIK the wiring regulations suggest that large fixed loads such as heaters should not be connected with a plug, and instead hard wired with an FCU or similar.

 

[morg]

A portable heater IS a non-fixed appliance.

What you've suggested however is not a portable heater, its a heater thats bolted to the wall, ie fixed.

AFAIK the wiring regulations suggest that large fixed loads such as heaters should not be connected with a plug, and instead hard wired with an FCU or similar.

Thanks for clearing that up! It makes sense,

You are probably right about the plug regs - With one of our fixed heaters, there is a switched FCU sitting on top of trunking with a compression gland on top of FCU - I imagine the spark will follow this same method, hopefully can get it done this week, its getting cold !



Cheers

 

[JohnW2]

A portable heater IS a non-fixed appliance. What you've suggested however is not a portable heater, its a heater thats bolted to the wall, ie fixed.

We've discussed this topic at some length in the past, and it certainly seems that there are some grey (or contentious!) and/or seemingly anomolous areas.

Does 'fixing' a portable appliance turn it into a fixed one? A few days ago I was staying in a hotel room which had a standard 'powered base' kettle, with a cable and moulded 13A plug, which I presume most people would agree is normally a 'portable appliance'. However, it's base was screwed/bolted down - did that make it a fixed appliance? .. and what about the millions of small wall mounted TVs (with leads and moulded plugs)? etc. etc.

Kind Regards, John.

 

[Aragorn84]

Fair point.

However the original suggestion that the heater did not come fitted with a plug nor flex would surely indicate that it was intended as a fixed appliance. Portable appliances would surely come pre-fitted with a plug?

 

[morg]

Interesting point John,

#also

Untitled

• morg
• 16 Jan 2012
• 1

Shall I send this to the HSE and ask if ok to hang myself

 

[morg]

Fair point.

However the original suggestion that the heater did not come fitted with a plug nor flex would surely indicate that it was intended as a fixed appliance. Portable appliances would surely come pre-fitted with a plug?

From Trading Standards Website:

Appliances

Regulations now ensure that all domestic electrical appliances are fitted with a plug from new.

All manufacturers and importers are required to ensure that electrical items they supply are fitted with UK three-pin plugs with the proper fuse. The only exceptions to this rule are for certain fixed electric lights, appliances intended to be permanently wired into the mains and appliances with an RCD plug or plug transformer. Distributors and retailers must not sell any appliances without a correct fused plug fitted.

 

[JohnW2]

Fair point. However the original suggestion that the heater did not come fitted with a plug nor flex would surely indicate that it was intended as a fixed appliance. Portable appliances would surely come pre-fitted with a plug?

Yes, I agree that the original description probably doesn't qualify as a portable appliance, for the reason you give - indeed, the absence of a cable rather suggests that it is only intended to be used 'fixed'. However, the most recent parts of the discussion related to portable appliances, so that's what my response also related to.

Kind Regards, John.

 

[westie101]

Seems the regulation to fit 13A plugs relates to domestic appliances with no indication if portable or not.
There are appliances out there that are intended for commercial use so would not come under this regulation.

 

[JohnW2]

From Trading Standards Website:

Appliances
Regulations now ensure that all domestic electrical appliances are fitted with a plug from new.
All manufacturers and importers are required to ensure that electrical items they supply are fitted with UK three-pin plugs with the proper fuse. The only exceptions to this rule are for certain fixed electric lights, appliances intended to be permanently wired into the mains and appliances with an RCD plug or plug transformer. Distributors and retailers must not sell any appliances without a correct fused plug fitted.

I think (but am not certain) that this only applies to appliances which come supplied with a lead - and was designed to outlaw the previous 'UK norm' (effective for all of my early life) of supplying appliances with leads but without plugs. Appliances designed to be 'fixed' or 'built-in' (e.g. many ovens, oven hoods, extractor fans etc. etc.) come without any lead - but I agree with Aragorn84 that those probably cannot be regarded as 'portable appliances' - even if they 'could be used as portable' if someone connected a flex and plug. ... but I may not be interpreting correctly!

Kind Regards, John

 

[morg]

Hehe, its very confusing

Look at this:

Rhino Heater CH3 Ceramic Heater 2 Heat Settings 110v - 1.5 - 3 kw

Rhino CH3 Ceramic Heater fully portable instant heat for temporary industrial heating.

.Can be wall mounted
.Complete with 3mtr h/d power cable
.Supplied with a full industrial warranty

 

[Spark123]

110V??
What use is that? Do you have installed 32A yellow ceeforms? Sufficient capacity on a continuously rated transformer?

 

[riveralt]

Appliances designed to be 'fixed' or 'built-in' (e.g. many ovens, oven hoods, extractor fans etc. etc.) come without any lead
Kind Regards, John

Sorry this is not true I have fitted numerous built in or fixed ovens and hobs over the past few months (Whirlpool, hotpoint and Ikea equivalents)and the majority seem to come with cables attached - never really long enough but its the thought that counts.