Wiring up a shed via a plug socket.

[JohnW2]

... The thing is, using the plug & socket actually doesn't make the slightest bit of difference interms of legality or "paperwork". The socket and it's supply are a new circuit, and that is still notifiable. There are two routes, getting an electrician to "sign it off" is not one of them.
1) Option one is to employ a qualified electrician who is a member of an approved scheme. He (or she) can self notify through his scheme for a pittance.

To be fair, the OP has already indicated that such is his proposal/plan....

By doing it my way I can do the shed wiring myself. I would only need to get a part p electrician to fit the 16 amp socket. What I plug into it is not his concern.

However, as you will have seen, I've questioned whether it is necessarily straightforward and, in particular, that what gets plugged into the socket is "of no concern" to the designing/installing/certifying electrician. These 16A unshuttered plugs are not allowed for 'normal household use', so the electrician would have to know about the intended purpose, and be satisfied that installation of such a socket would thereby be compliant.

Even if the OP got an electrician to install a new circuit feeding something which was not a 16A socket, and the OP then 'extended' that circuit to a 16A socket (which extension would not be notifiable), the same issues/questions as to whether a 16A socket would be BS7671-compliant (hence, I imagine''legal' in the OP's eyes) would still arise.

Kind Regards, John

 

[ekmdgrf]

I was waiting for someone to ask the "why" question.
The reason is I want to get around the regulations, but in a legal way. To do it "properly" I would have to employ an electrician who is Part P verified to do the whole job, wire up the shed, bury an SWA cable in the ground etc etc. This would be expensive. I could do it myself and get a part P electrician to sign it off but I am lead to believe I would have difficulty getting a spark to sign off someone else work. Also, it is likely he would want to see it at various stages, such as the trench for the SWA before it was back filled.
By doing it my way I can do the shed wiring myself. I would only need to get a part p electrician to fit the 16 amp socket. What I plug into it is not his concern. In addition the 16 amp socket would be useful for high consumption devices such as a welder or compressor.
As to the question of will I leave it plugged in? Yes, highly likely, but it will be securely clipped along the garden wall so will never pose a trip hazard.

Getting around the regulations in a legal way is generally know as "complying with the regulations". I think you'd do much better to do some more research of what needs to be done and concentrate on doing a top notch job, rather than doing a half arsed job to try to jump through a loophole in the regs.

As SimonH2 pointed out, your current approach is not likely to yield the result you're looking for. You'll have a hard time trying to convince anybody that a cable that is attached to a wall is "temporary", even if it does have a plug on it.

Concentrate your efforts on doing the job right.

 

[westie101]

These 16A unshuttered plugs are not allowed for 'normal household use',

Out of interest where does it say that?

I would suggest that as long as one complies with the principles of Part P there is no reason not to use one for specific purposes.

At the end of the day why then are they allowed for commercial/industrial use (ever camp side that provides a hook up in the UK has them where they sit outside on posts are are easily accessible to folk who might interfere with them or poke things in them)

 

[JohnW2]

These 16A unshuttered plugs are not allowed for 'normal household use',

Out of interest where does it say that?

BS7671 ...

Every socket-outlet for household and similar use shall be of the shuttered type and, for an a.c. installation, shall preferably be of a type complying with BS1363

You will not be surprised to hear that it does not define "household and similar use" - so your guess is really as good as mine as to what 'uses' one is allowed to use a non-shuttered socket for!

I would suggest that as long as one complies with the principles of Part P there is no reason not to use one for specific purposes.

I would suggest that only an expert could even try to argue that something "complied with the principles of Part P" if it were overtly non-compliant with BS7671 - and, even then, they may not succeed.

Kind Regards, John

 

[westie101]

Every socket-outlet for household and similar use shall be of the shuttered type and, for an a.c. installation, shall preferably be of a type complying with BS1363

To be pedantic

That does not state that it should be an automatic shutter as fitted to a 13A socket.
A 16A socket has a manual shutter

It says "preferably" not "must" a whole different meaning

Where does a 5A socket fit in as they still see widespread us and do not have manual or automatic shutter.

If I were to fit a 16A outdoor socket to provide a supply to my caravan would that be illegal? No, it may not comply with BS 7671 which it doesn't have to, but if installed with due diligence it would still be legal, until a court ruled otherwise.

I wouldn't BTW as I have a PME supply!

EDIT, Sorry just checked 5A sockets do now have an automatic shutter

 

[westie101]

To carry on with the absurdity of blindly following a book!

To fit something like this on a dedicated 16A circuit and RCD protected would be classed as unsafe and not permitted

https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/...YEUYRWENCZ4BjeN3Q85hOASIlf2WD3K3JvhuwWJRSHWk4

But would one of these

https://www.towsure.com/images/prod...apter-13-amp-plug-to-caravan-mains-socket.jpg


plugged into an unswitched (or switched ) 13A socket be any safer as it would seem to be permitted?
Or even wired direct into an unswitched (or switched) FCU

But to continue again what is safer, a 16A socket in a controlled environment like a household, or possibly 100 of them spread out around a campsite which is uncontrolled

 

[JohnW2]

Every socket-outlet for household and similar use shall be of the shuttered type and, for an a.c. installation, shall preferably be of a type complying with BS1363

To be pedantic ... That does not state that it should be an automatic shutter as fitted to a 13A socket. ... A 16A socket has a manual shutter

I suppose that's true - if the cover of a 16A socket actually counts as a 'shutter (again, of course, we have no definition!)

It says "preferably" not "must" a whole different meaning

Yes, but the "preferably" is only in relation to BS1363 compliance, not the shutter.

Where does a 5A socket fit in as they still see widespread us and do not have manual or automatic shutter.

This is where it gets more complicated (and let's temporarily forget the point you go on to add that automatically-shuttered 5A sockets are now available). Immediately before 533.1.100 is Table 55.1, which indicates what Standard socket outlets must comply with. In addition to the obvious BS1363 ones, there are "Plugs, fused or unfused, and socket-outlets, 2-pole and earth - 2, 5, 15 & 30A", which must comply with BS546 and (lo and behold) "Plugs and sockets (industrial type) - 16, 32, 63 & 125A" which have to comply with BS EN 60309-2. However, it doesn't say which of those are to be used for what (don't forget that BS7671 does not only apply to domestic installations), so we're still left trying to work out what is, and is not, allowed by 533.1.100 for "household and similar use"!

533.1.5 specifically allows clock connectors and shaver sockets which do not comply with any of the Standards in Table 55.1, provided they comply with other relevant Standards.

If I were to fit a 16A outdoor socket to provide a supply to my caravan would that be illegal? No, it may not comply with BS 7671 which it doesn't have to, but if installed with due diligence it would still be legal, until a court ruled otherwise.

Well, as I intimated before, you probably have enough knowledge to be able to successfully argue that it is 'legal' (compliant with part P) even if not compliant with BS7671 - but you are in a small minority.

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

To carry on with the absurdity of blindly following a book! To fit something like this on a dedicated 16A circuit and RCD protected would be classed as unsafe and not permitted https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/...N3Q85hOASIlf2WD3K3JvhuwWJRSHWk4[/QUOTE]Maybe, unless you could be successful in your argument that its cover counted as a "shutter" and/or you could successfully argue that it was to be used for something other than "household or similar use".

But would one of these https://www.towsure.com/images/prod...apter-13-amp-plug-to-caravan-mains-socket.jpg plugged into an unswitched (or switched ) 13A socket be any safer as it would seem to be permitted? Or even wired direct into an unswitched (or switched) FCU

I suspect that is outside of the scope of BS7671, so goodness knows what regulations, if any, relate to whether or not it is 'permitted'.

But to continue again what is safer, a 16A socket in a controlled environment like a household, or possibly 100 of them spread out around a campsite which is uncontrolled

No-one has claimed that regulations are always logical, or necessarily even sensible - I suspect that's even probably true of some of 'your' regs!

Kind Regards, John

 

[yorkspark]

For the purpose of the discussion, what are the thoughts about an interlocked 16a socket, would you consider this to be classed as shuttered so therefore been compliant?

 

[jason61c]

Maybe you could ask the question of the easiest/cheapest way to achieve what you want?

 

[JohnW2]

For the purpose of the discussion, what are the thoughts about an interlocked 16a socket, would you consider this to be classed as shuttered so therefore been compliant?

Common sense would probably say yes - but I can't really speak for the reg's (unstated) definition of 'shuttered'.

Kind Regards, John

 

[ban-all-sheds]

The reason is I want to get around the regulations, but in a legal way. To do it "properly" I would have to employ an electrician who is Part P verified to do the whole job, wire up the shed, bury an SWA cable in the ground etc etc.

But it has to be done properly no matter who does it. And you do not have to use an electrician, unless you feel that you would not be capable of doing it safely.

The law requires that reasonable provision shall be made in the design and installation of electrical installations in order to protect persons operating, maintaining or altering the installations from fire or injury. So if to comply with that the cable to the shed needs to be buried SWA then it needs to be buried SWA if it is done by you, or by an electrician. How ever it is done, you must be able to do it as well as an electrician would.

The only regulation you can "get round" by having a poor design is the one requiring certain work to be notified.

Also, it is likely he would want to see it at various stages, such as the trench for the SWA before it was back filled.

Well if you were doing the digging of a trench under the supervision and guidance of an electrician, what would be the problem with him checking it now and then?

By doing it my way I can do the shed wiring myself.

As long as you don't have a CU in there - if you do that's notifiable. You could still DIY it but you'd have to pay LABC fees, and do something about testing.

it will be securely clipped along the garden wall so will never pose a trip hazard.

That may be reasonably safe, and therefore legal, or it may not be. Nobody can be sure without actually seeing where it would go.

If it is safe and legal then an electrician could do it, or you could.

If it is not safe, and therefore not legal, then neither of you may do it.

Remember that safe, and therefore legal, means that you'll have to consider the fault loop impedance when choosing the size of the cable.