Kitchen electrics - illuminated switches question

[ban-all-sheds]

Why do you have small boys with such unsupervised access to appliances that they can turn then on without your knowledge?

How many instances of cookers overheating and catching fire have you encountered or heard of?

 

[Steven Prentice]

we live in a house, the house has a kitchen, the boys are able to op[en doors and no matter how goof a parents supervision is sometimes they need to leave the room. The other option would be to poo in a bucket in the living rom. All parents encounter this dilena, and as the children grow up they still want to press buttons but they get less direct supervision.

Cookers overheating - not quite related but in a previous role we turned the power on to blocks of flats. None of the flats had their power on untuil we had visually checked that the cooker tops were free from paoper work (yeah, a lot had paper on the hobs, like the cooker manuals), all the rings and ovens were off and the switch was off.

Things go wrong and for the small cost to get the added convenience of an accessible switch, might not be a requirement in the regs but they are in my kitchen

 

[ban-all-sheds]

we live in a house, the house has a kitchen, the boys are able to op[en doors and no matter how goof a parents supervision is sometimes they need to leave the room. The other option would be to poo in a bucket in the living rom.

No - unless the bucket they use is only in the kitchen then they can be denied access to the kitchen. Never heard of gates?

All parents encounter this dilena, and as the children grow up they still want to press buttons but they get less direct supervision.

No matter how unfashionable it may be, I will always assert that allowing children unsupervised access to areas where they can do, or come to, harm is irresponsible, and bad parenting.

Cookers overheating - not quite related but in a previous role we turned the power on to blocks of flats. None of the flats had their power on untuil we had visually checked that the cooker tops were free from paoper work (yeah, a lot had paper on the hobs, like the cooker manuals), all the rings and ovens were off and the switch was off.

I would love to see you try to explain how the presence of local appliance isolation in those flats would have made a difference to any risks associated with turning the power on.

 

[bernardgreen]

How many instances of cookers overheating and catching fire have you encountered or heard of?

My mother in law's oven over heated, flames from the meat that was ooking, the elements at the side glowing red. ( thermostat failed in the ON stae ) Cooker switch directly above the oven was just accessible without getting burnt by the niw extremely hot cooker. Isolating at the CU would have meant first moving the heavy settee that blocked access to the floor level cupboard where the CU was located. Wired fiuses so the main switch would have to be turned off.

Pictures of several similar incidents were in the Black Museum at a Fire Brigade HQ in 1980's

 

[mwatsonxx]

Alway fit readily accessable local isolators, and use lollipop circuits in kitchens.

 

[Taylortwocities]

Alway fit readily accessable local isolators, and use lollipop circuits in kitchens.

You are a total 100% idiot.

Please state the regulation that states that readily accessable local isolators are a requirement. (not a mwhatson nice to have).
The so called "Lollipop" arrangements are not accepted methods of providing final circuits. Please read, digest and understand BS7671 before you post again.

 

[mwatsonxx]

You are a total 100% idiot.

I can prove I'm not, can you?

Please state the regulation that states that readily accessable local isolators are a requirement. (not a mwhatson nice to have).
The so called "Lollipop" arrangements are not accepted methods of providing final circuits. Please read, digest and understand BS7671 before you post again.

I think you've been here too long, you are getting to be very nasty man. And now showing your ignorance, just because you can't understand a circuit arrangement doesn't mean it is not allowed.

 

[mwatsonxx]

I would love to see you try to explain how the presence of local appliance isolation in those flats would have made a difference to any risks associated with turning the power on.

They would allow the power to be instantly switched off, surely you can understand that.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Cookers overheating - not quite related but in a previous role we turned the power on to blocks of flats. None of the flats had their power on untuil we had visually checked that the cooker tops were free from paoper work

So who were the people occupying these flats without power who would have instantly switched off the power to a cooker which had already been checked as "free from paper work, all the rings and ovens were off" when it suddenly overheated?

 

[Steven Prentice]

So who were the people occupying these flats without power who would have instantly switched off the power to a cooker which had already been checked as "free from paper work, all the rings and ovens were off" when it suddenly overheated?

Sorry, I should have added a few more words to that point As an example of how a safe installation can be compromisdby a human factor. These were brand new flats, electrics instraled to the latest standards (or at least to the minimum standard that the regs allow), and the electrics were safe. Then add in humans and they do stuff like leaving the manuals for the brand new cooker on top of the rings, other humans come to view the flat and wander about the kitchen flicking switches, and seeing how the cooker dials turn. I added this as an example that no matter how safe your installationis, people do stuff that is weird.

Having a accessible switch local to the appliance can help mitigate against the weird stuff that people do. If yoiu hear a strange noise in the kitchem where would you first go? The kitchen or the fuse box?


As for the regs... if you install your electrics according to them then you can demonstrate that you have installed your electrics to a minimum standard for safety. As such if something goes wrong you have an easier defence. Like I said the regs are the minimum requirement - yuo can install to a greater standard so long as you meet these minimum requirements. An example here is to have an accessible switch for kitchen appliances - not a requirement however its an additional safety factor.

 

[EFLImpudence]

I would take issue with you to a certain extent.

The minimum standard that you consider the regulations to be are in fact quite stringent (as is the nature of Britain) and being supplemented all the time.
Obviously the regulations can be exceeded if it is wished for things considered as being for extra safety.


As for the switches in question: local isolation is not a requirement of the regulations, isolation being a term different than merely switching off, and rarely necessary.
Personally I find functional switches all over the place for every item unnecessary and definitely aesthetically undesirable.

As well as this, there is scope for emergency switches where this is thought desirable, although again, how often such switches are used for that purpose is probably extremely rarely. A natural response to an emergency will be to get away.



I fail to see how such a switch would prevent an idiot turning on a hob when it is covered in paperwork.

 

[Steven Prentice]

Hate having tio explain things again... the paperwork exanple was an example of how people do weird things perhaps I could have used another one but that was closest in relevence to a kitchen Having the local switch off gave us an extra layer of protection when we turned the main power on. Often the owners wouldn't be moving in for a few weeks. It didn't prevent the 'idiot' however it was safer that way.

I would agree that the UK has very high standards, but following the discussuionwhere some comments were alomost saying "it doesn' say that in the regs, so it can't / shouldn't be done" I felt it important to pint out that just becauser the regs don't say it, doesn't mean that you can't go over ad above what they say. Personnal preference I knw and switces I can swiitch are my preference

 

[JohnW2]

... Having the local switch off gave us an extra layer of protection ... Personnal preference I knw and switces I can swiitch are my preference

Most 'benefits' come at a cost which has to be considered. Additional switches/'isolators' means additional points of potential failure, and poor connections in switches/isolators can result, and has resulted, in fires.

In passing, switches/isolators for cookers/ovens can be a particular pain, if people turn them of regularly (e.g. 'after each use'). As a safety feature, many modern cookers/ovens are designed so that, if power is lost (e.g. due to a power cut), they will not work after restoration of power until one does something (usually resetting the clock). Similarly, 'shower isolators' fail in a potentially dangerous manner (potentially resulting fires) than do the showers they are there to 'isolate'.

I'm just saying that one has to think about both sides of the coin.

Kind Regards, John

 

[ban-all-sheds]

As well as this, there is scope for emergency switches where this is thought desirable, although again, how often such switches are used for that purpose is probably extremely rarely.

And how often such switches comply with the requirements for emergency ones is probably extremely rarely.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Hate having tio explain things again... the paperwork exanple was an example of how people do weird things perhaps I could have used another one but that was closest in relevence to a kitchen Having the local switch off gave us an extra layer of protection when we turned the main power on. Often the owners wouldn't be moving in for a few weeks. It didn't prevent the 'idiot' however it was safer that way.

So that's a single isolated instance at the start of the life of the installation, and one which will never happen again, unless the standard procedure on change of owner/tenant is:

1. An outside agency removes power from the flat
2. Then goes in and turns off isolators
3. Then restores power to the flat

Is that what happens?

Because if not, then the scenario you are "explaining" will never arise again, and I'm as sure as I can be that it does not apply to Sean.