Machining marks in wood and what's now acceptable as compared to yester year?

T

teaboyjim

I was always taught that good quality joinery and or woodwork had to have all tooling marks removed from the wood.
This would include all sanding marks and wood machining marks but I regularly see machined wood full of machine marks that is supposedly "ready".
Has the standard of having wood cleaned of machine marks/sanding marks gone down overtime?

I suspect that in Germany they have a higher standard of wood cleaning than we do as they in general have a second to none attention to detail that surpasses our own and that of the Dutch
 
Sponsored Links
I was always taught that good quality joinery and or woodwork had to have all tooling marks removed from the wood.
Yes, but are you talking about lumber, as taken from the rack, or finished products, such as doors?

In the case of lumber it has always been the case that if you want smooth timber with nary a machine scallop mark in sight, you will pay more simply because the four sider will have to be fed at a slower rate.

If it's doors, then I suggest you stop buying bargain basement crap from the likes of B&Q and find yourself a decent door manufacturer who edge sands his product

I think the biggest difference in quality in my lifetime has been down to the Chinese coming into the market. Their cheap products, often very poorly made and finished to make them even cheaper, have changed perceptions about what is acceptable (or rather what you can get away with). The DIY sheds driving prices downwards, with the inevitable reduction in quality that brings, have also changed perceptions.

Finally the other issue is that timber us a natural resource, and as we as a species aren't replacing the stuff we cut down, the actual.quality of the timber we see (in terms of grain, colour, ring density, sizes, etc) is diminishing. I mean, when was the last time you saw first growth 24in wide yellow pine boards? Never? But they were available in Victorian times

I suspect that in Germany they have a higher standard of wood cleaning than we do as they in general have a second to none attention to detail that surpasses our own and that of the Dutch
I'll let you into a secret about German machinery as opposed to what we used to make here (at least as far as engineering and woodworking stuff goes) - the Germans put the minimum amount of engineering into a product with the intention of achieving the design life, possibly 10 years - the British used to build up to a standard with the intention of equipment lasting generations. Somewhere along the way we lost that approach, that pride in what we produce. Or it simply became too expensive to do that any more

In terms if materials I can't remember seeing any difference in the quality of what you could buy in Germany vs. the Netherlands vs. the UK when I lived abroad. What I did see was the willingness of the British to adopt a "stack it high, sell it cheap" mentality where price point rather than quality is the benchmark. The Germans, on the other hand, are far more willing to pay a higher price a better product than the cheapskate Brits

So I think if you want better quality, pay more and choose your supplier better and you'll get it
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Yes, but are you talking about lumber, as taken from the rack, or finished products, such as doors?
I'm meaning in general for instance if you went to buy some fence posts they would most likely be covered in machine marks whereas years ago they perhaps would have been finished cleaner or perhaps the carpenters would have cleaned the machine marks with a hand plane? The problem if a tradesman uses a hand held planer it leaves machine marks. Is it just that nobody does the finishing any more perhaps?

Here's a good example J and K. Let's say we were examining the skirting boards of 10 Victorian/Edwardian houses and compared them with skirting board of modern houses. I would expect the skirting board and woodwork from the Edwardian/Victorian houses to be free of original machine marks. What would you expect? All the door jams perhaps might have machine marks all over them in the modern houses but not in the Edwardian and Victorian ones.

In the case of lumber it has always been the case that if you want smooth timber with nary a machine scallop mark in sight, you will pay more simply because the four sider will have to be fed at a slower rate.
Is it possible to take wood straight off of a planer without any machine marks?

I think the biggest difference in quality in my lifetime has been down to the Chinese coming into the market. Their cheap products, often very poorly made and finished to make them even cheaper, have changed perceptions about what is acceptable (or rather what you can get away with). The DIY sheds driving prices downwards, with the inevitable reduction in quality that brings, have also changed perceptions.
Perhaps it's this and that the consumer doesn't know or notice the difference in quality?

Finally the other issue is that timber us a natural resource, and as we as a species aren't replacing the stuff we cut down, the actual.quality of the timber we see (in terms of grain, colour, ring density, sizes, etc) is diminishing. I mean, when was the last time you saw first growth 24in wide yellow pine boards? Never? But they were available in Victorian times
What do you mean by first growth? I know what you mean about 24inch wide pine. For instance Victorian pine chest of drawers quite often had a top that was made from one or two boards only and same for back boards. Also didn't they use a lot of "Pitch Pine" in construction of docs?

Where would you even find those type of pine trees any more? I suppose in virgin forests of Russia/Ukraine/Canada and places like that. I remember learning that the slower the growth the more dense the trees were and the newer forests that were growing quickly weren't as good quality because the pine grew faster and was less dense hence less strong
 
I had a piece of solid oak put through a thickenesser at one of the big timber merchants as gap between two doors was too narrow for two architraves. When the piece came back it was covered in indentations where they hadn't cleaned the bed of the machine.
 
Sponsored Links
I had a piece of solid oak put through a thickenesser at one of the big timber merchants as gap between two doors was too narrow for two architraves. When the piece came back it was covered in indentations where they hadn't cleaned the bed of the machine.
Lack of attention to detail no doubt the case of this. High attention to detail is paramount for the creation of good quality work
 
I was always taught that good quality joinery and or woodwork had to have all tooling marks removed from the wood.
This would include all sanding marks and wood machining marks but I regularly see machined wood full of machine marks that is supposedly "ready".
Are we talking about planed timber as it comes from a timber merchant? Or finished products from a joiner? If the former then you are buying planed timber NOT sanded and I can tell you that planed timber had always had machining marks on it - it is and always has been the responsibility of the joiner to remove them. The same applies to the lipped edges of cheaper doors (unless they are specifically sold as "finish sanded") - it's the installer's job to sand the edges. From having lived and worked abroad, German timbers coming off the yard are no better than here, but one thing Germans will do is to pay the joiner more to install the materials than the Brits, who are almost universally parsimonious when it comes to spending money

If you want high class work, you end up paying high prices
 
It depends on the product.

softwood mouldings like skirting come straight off moulders, cutter marks are inevitable.
If you go to a quality timber merchant the finish will be very clean
Cutter marks would be a defined quality standard.
Feed rate through a moulder doesn't necessarily indicate quality, some high speed moulder have 24 cutter per head and feed speeds of 80 metres a minute.

Doors etc would go through a wide belt sander.


All softwood these days, spruce or redwood is plantation grown and grown in warmer climates so trees are small and growth rings not tight.

The best softwood these days is Siberian Larch - It's a fantastic material, with growth rings just 1mm apart and rock hard. I can but it unsorted grades 1-3 and it's often really clean.

By the way, in softwood generally 1" x 6" is sideboards and pretty knot free but 2 1/2" x 9" has knots and shakes. It's pretty hard to get bigger sections knot and split free.
 
I'm meaning in general for instance if you went to buy some fence posts they would most likely be covered in machine marks whereas years ago they perhaps would have been finished cleaner or perhaps the carpenters would have cleaned the machine marks with a hand plane?
What are you talking about? Fence posts have always been either sawn or peeled (at least for the last 120 odd years) and nobody in their right mind would spend any time to try and plane or sand them (have you ever tried to plane or sand wet or green timber?)

Let's say we were examining the skirting boards of 10 Victorian/Edwardian houses and compared them with skirting board of modern houses. I would expect the skirting board and woodwork from the Edwardian/Victorian houses to be free of original machine marks. What would you expect?
It depends on the age, location and class of the house. You have got to realise that machined timber profiles became the norm in big towns and cities in the UK as early as the 1860s (most of the big woodworking machines had been invented and were in use before 1850 - see Powis-Bale) although there was still a tendency until WWI and later for smaller shops to machine just the faces and edges of, say, skirtings because of the cost, size and complexity of 4-sided moulders. In addition the class of work is very significant; work on an old bank or a high class house, for example, and you will probably find that all the mouldings at "front of house" look to have been sanded before and possibly after installation - because they would possibly be hardwood, stained and polished - whereas back of house (I.e.servants or staff areas) skirtings were often low quality and given a quick coat of thick dark brown or dark green paint. In late Victorian and Edwardian houses sanding of those skirtings, especially if they have rarely seen a lick of paint, can reveal the tell-tale scallops of high speed wood machining. Even where front of house is painted (and remember they used lead based paints a lot, which are extremely thick in comparison with modern coatings - and thus will hide machining scallops all the better). Hand work is and always has been expensive

All the door jams perhaps might have machine marks all over them in the modern houses but not in the Edwardian and Victorian ones.
Actually, I have seen machining marks on softwood Edwardian frames and casings , but rarely on the rather fancy architraves they used possibly because at least some of them were hand planed

Is it possible to take wood straight off of a planer without any machine marks?
No. You can reduce or minimise machine scallops by optimising cutter speed, feed speed, etc

Perhaps it's this and that the consumer doesn't know or notice the difference in quality?
And/or won't pay an appropriate price for the quality here in the UK these days. Work on a hardwood shop fitting job like John Lewis, Debenhams or Next and the hardwood fittings are perfectly machined and properly sanded - so it is possible if you are prepared to pay the price

What do you mean by first growth?
Timber cut from virgin forest. This is generally straighter, has tighter rings (I.e slower grown), deeper colour (in hardwoods) and has larger diameter boles (trunks) yielding wider boards. Second growth is what has grown in place of the virgin forest and is what we generally see today - wider rings, less strong, paler in colour (hardwoods) and smaller (narrower) planks because the trees are less mature when felled

Also didn't they use a lot of "Pitch Pine" in construction of docs?
Docks? More stuff like iron heart, etc which withstand being soaked and dried continuously. Pitch pine was favoured from the mid-19th century until the 20s or 30s for primary beams, roof trusses, purlins, ring beams, mill floors, etc whilst in the same period Quebec yellow pine was the preferred timber for frame and panel doors, skirtings and other mouldings, floorboards, etc. As supplies of virgin forest timber diminished flooring switched to other species, like parana pine, but remember that in the same period building structure changed with larger buildings transitioning to steel frame structures

Where would you even find those type of pine trees any more? I suppose in virgin forests of Russia/Ukraine/Canada and places like that.
The best yellow pine was always Canadian (colder, so slower growth). The best pitch pine came from north east USA. AFAIK almost all virgin softwood forests in north America were felled by the end of WWII. There is little left. Russian timber is really only co instruction quality - wrong species for much else
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Are we talking about planed timber as it comes from a timber merchant? Or finished products from a joiner? If the former then you are buying planed timber NOT sanded and I can tell you that planed timber had always had machining marks on it - it is and always has been the responsibility of the joiner to remove them.
Well I'm talking about general material that's used and is in it's finished state with these unsightly machining marks so that would include doors, architrave, skirting boards and fences and fence posts, sheds etc etc
I suppose the problem here is that the standards have gone down meaning the joiners/carpenters doing the work just take the machined raw timber without cleaning it. So it's a problem of trying to get good quality work done by the finishers
but one thing Germans will do is to pay the joiner more to install the materials than the Brits, who are almost universally parsimonious when it comes to spending money
Yes this is really what I mean - the culture in Germany is one of doing a thorough and quality job - more than here in the UK I believe - this principle is not something I'm specifically applying to the wood working industries - I'm applying it generally across the board.
 
What are you talking about? Fence posts have always been either sawn or peeled (at least for the last 120 odd years) and nobody in their right mind would spend any time to try and plane or sand them (have you ever tried to plane or sand wet or green timber?)
I was thinking of garden panel fences and fenceposts or even garden benches for instance. If you're talking about farmers fence posts then I can understand that especially if it's green wood.
It depends on the age, location and class of the house. You have got to realise that machined timber profiles became the norm in big towns and cities in the UK as early as the 1860s (most of the big woodworking machines had been invented and were in use before 1850 - see Powis-Bale) although there was still a tendency until WWI and later for smaller shops to machine just the faces and edges of, say, skirtings because of the cost, size and complexity of 4-sided moulders. In addition the class of work is very significant; work on an old bank or a high class house, for example, and you will probably find that all the mouldings at "front of house" look to have been sanded before and possibly after installation - because they would possibly be hardwood, stained and polished - whereas back of house (I.e.servants or staff areas) skirtings were often low quality and given a quick coat of thick dark brown or dark green paint. In late Victorian and Edwardian houses sanding of those skirtings, especially if they have rarely seen a lick of paint, can reveal the tell-tale scallops of high speed wood machining. Even where front of house is painted (and remember they used lead based paints a lot, which are extremely thick in comparison with modern coatings - and thus will hide machining scallops all the better). Hand work is and always has been expensive
As a rule of thumb wouldn't there have been in general more attention paid to the proper "cleaning" of skirting boards than there probably is now as a general rule. I didn't realize you'd find scalloped woodwork in late Victorian and Edwardian houses - I assumed these would have been cleaned as a matter of doing a normal job.
Actually, I have seen machining marks on softwood Edwardian frames and casings , but rarely on the rather fancy architraves they used possibly because at least some of them were hand planed
That's interesting - I think if it's hand planed correctly you don't need to scrape or sand the wood.
And/or won't pay an appropriate price for the quality here in the UK these days. Work on a hardwood shop fitting job like John Lewis, Debenhams or Next and the hardwood fittings are perfectly machined and properly sanded - so it is possible if you are prepared to pay the price
I think part of the problem is people try to cut corners thinking nobody will notice these details - I hear this time and time again about the quality of new build houses and flats
Timber cut from virgin forest. This is generally straighter, has tighter rings (I.e slower grown), deeper colour (in hardwoods) and has larger diameter boles (trunks) yielding wider boards. Second growth is what has grown in place of the virgin forest and is what we generally see today - wider rings, less strong, paler in colour (hardwoods) and smaller (narrower) planks because the trees are less mature when felled
I didn't think all first growth/primary forests had been depleted - Does that include Quebec yellow pine which I'm familiar with? Would Quebec yellow pine be the main material used for 18th and 19th century pine furniture?
Docks? More stuff like iron heart, etc which withstand being soaked and dried continuously. Pitch pine was favoured from the mid-19th century until the 20s or 30s for primary beams, roof trusses, purlins, ring beams, mill floors, etc whilst in the same period Quebec yellow pine was the preferred timber for frame and panel doors, skirtings and other mouldings, floorboards, etc. As supplies of virgin forest timber diminished flooring switched to other species, like parana pine, but remember that in the same period building structure changed with larger buildings transitioning to steel frame structures
I'm familiar with parana pine which I think comes from South America - Isn't pitch pine just pine that's been soaked in pitch? It's not a species of tree is it?
The best yellow pine was always Canadian (colder, so slower growth). The best pitch pine came from north east USA. AFAIK almost all virgin softwood forests in north America were felled by the end of WWII. There is little left. Russian timber is really only co instruction quality - wrong species for much else
I thought Russia had one of the largest virgin forests left especially in places like Siberia
 
Last edited by a moderator:
It depends on the product. softwood mouldings like skirting come straight off moulders, cutter marks are inevitable.
So probably the only way to clean those is to give them a sand. How clean is it possible to find good quality mouldings? Is it possible to get machined timber that's almost mark free?
The best softwood these days is Siberian Larch - It's a fantastic material, with growth rings just 1mm apart and rock hard. I can but it unsorted grades 1-3 and it's often really clean.
What sort of uses does it have and isn't it popular to use with plywood?
 
I suppose the problem here is that the standards have gone down meaning the joiners/carpenters doing the work just take the machined raw timber without cleaning it. So it's a problem of trying to get good quality work done by the finishers
On a lot of jobs site management will tell the chippies that finishing (sanding) is the province of the decorators. The decos, on the other hand don't agree - and they then slap-on modern, thin, water-based finishes which exacerbates the scallop effect as opposed to the heavy, high solids (thick) oil and lead- based paints of yore, which tended to cover up the issue.

In terms of finished products (doors, etc) it has always been the case that you could opt to pay more for sanded and primed or sanded, stained and lacquered finsh - but they do cost more

I should point out that I spent several decades in the interior fit out trade, where on medium to high end work (normally hardwood) everything that would be on show at front of house, came either sanded and lacquered or sanded and primed. In other words we built up to a standard. But then the customer pays for that, whereas the average housing development in the UK is most definitely built down to a price. So don't blame the joiners, it isn't their fault that standards are so low, it's the cheapskate nature of investors, developers and clients who equate cheap with good in this country
 
On a lot of jobs site management will tell the chippies that finishing (sanding) is the province of the decorators. The decos, on the other hand don't agree - and they then slap-on modern, thin, water-based finishes which exacerbates the scallop effect as opposed to the heavy, high solids (thick) oil and lead- based paints of yore, which tended to cover up the issue.
Now that really makes a huge amount of sense. I can certainty see that happening "alot".
I should point out that I spent several decades in the interior fit out trade, where on medium to high end work (normally hardwood) everything that would be on show at front of house, came either sanded and lacquered or sanded and primed. In other words we built up to a standard. But then the customer pays for that, whereas the average housing development in the UK is most definitely built down to a price. So don't blame the joiners, it isn't their fault that standards are so low, it's the cheapskate nature of investors, developers and clients who equate cheap with good in this country
Thanks for those really great explanations. I agree particularly with the way the investors, developers and clients think - everything's about the bottom dollar - we are too short term in our thinking!!
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I was thinking of garden panel fences and fenceposts...
There has never been any point planing or sanding rough exterior work, so AFAIK it has never been done, even in Victorian times because it was fairly pointless (grain rises when wood is soaked)

I didn't realize you'd find scalloped woodwork in late Victorian and Edwardian houses - I assumed these would have been cleaned as a matter of doing a normal job
But what you are forgetting is that as I have said traditional linseed oil and lead based paints are very thick (high solids) in comparison to modern paints. That's at least part of why the scallops are less noticeable in old stuff - that and the 8 layers of paint they've acquired over 100 odd years. The other reaso is that modern second growth softwoods are generally a lot less close grained than virgin forest softwoods which were coming into the UK 100+ years ago

I think if it's hand planed correctly you don't need to scrape or sand the wood.
Good luck with that. Other than very high end work there is no such thing as hand planed
And this isn't new.

BTW you can't scrape softwoods, only sand them, and there are hardwoods like that as well. Hand planing on, say, 7in wide boards will always leave tracks or scallops, depending on the grind of the iron, which needs to be sanded or scraped out. The fact that you are unaware of this tell me you are not a hand plane user

I think part of the problem is people try to cut corners thinking nobody will notice these details - I hear this time and time again about the quality of new build houses and flats
Yes, but if you pay more you get better stuff. If you want the best possible painted finish I suggest you buy (or specify) pre-finished MDF skirtings and architraves as well as pre-finished, pre- hung MDF faced doors. You'll then get the perfect painted finish you demand

I didn't think all first growth/primary forests had been depleted - Does that include Quebec yellow pine which I'm familiar with? Would Quebec yellow pine be the main material used for 18th and 19th century pine furniture?
Where have you been for the past 50 years, Jim? Some species have been clear felled to (near) extinction. Almost all the virgin lumber in Canada and the West Coast of the USA was cleared by the early 1950s. AFAIK Quebec yellow pine pretty much disappeared in the 1930s

I'm familiar with parana pine which I think comes from South America - Isn't pitch pine just pine that's been soaked in pitch? It's not a species of tree is it?
Parana pine more or less disappeared by the late 1970s (felled to near depletion). Pitch pine, like turpentine pine, is or rather was a separate species. Again commercial felling ended by the 1930s in the main

I thought Russia had one of the largest virgin forests left especially in places like Siberia
Yes, but the species are relatively poor quality in comparison to former North American timbers. The best Russian redwoods can be difficult to come by these days and have gotten expensive in recent years. Most of what the Russians seem to export is whitewood (pine)
 
Last edited by a moderator:

DIYnot Local

Staff member

If you need to find a tradesperson to get your job done, please try our local search below, or if you are doing it yourself you can find suppliers local to you.

Select the supplier or trade you require, enter your location to begin your search.


Are you a trade or supplier? You can create your listing free at DIYnot Local

 
Sponsored Links

Similar threads

Back
Top