The transition to EVs

[diy_fun_uk]

The new infrastructure will be a natural progression as we work to adapt to the changing number of EVs, this seems fairly obvious to me.

Following the ban on selling new ICE cars there will be a natural lifespan for the cars left including the 2nd hand market. However as the numbers dwindle, you’ll see a reversal of fortune with the number of charge points to fuel pumps… fuel prices will skyrocket due to the squeeze on demand as those cars become less viable.

The fossils who steadfastly refuse to move to EV will be a small minority of enthusiasts (like classic car collectors today) willing to put up with the expense and inconvenience.

I agree it'll no doubt 'sort itself out' as they say. If EVs remain the strategic direction then yes, over the next decade we should see significant changes to the charging infrastructure.

I think on that same tv prog I referenced before in this thread, they featured a company that was changing older petrol/diesel cars (including classics) to electric, however prices for the conversion ranged from £15k for a diy home kit up to circa £70k. They went out in a classic Porsche that had been converted, however part of me thought has the soul of the car gone as the engine is usually an integral part of what makes a classic car a classic.

 

[IT Minion]

Perhaps it depends how you define 'fuel efficient'.
My charge-as-you-drive hybrid gives me about 2.5 times the mpg that my old petrol-only car did, despite having a 200cc larger petrol engine and a kerb weight ~80kg heavier.

It's how they're used in practice. A lot of fleets bought them but never plug them in. That leaves you with an unusually heavy classic hybrid.

 

[motorbiking]

my GFs 116d, has a 2.0l diesel and manages mid 60s mpg. I can't see a hybrid doing much better.

 

[ericmark]

The problem is charge points go 2.4 kW, 3.5 kW, 7 kW, 22 kW then DC, and many EV cars can't use 22 kW and DC some can't even use the 7 kW charge, so we get two cars at two 22 kW charge points down the road here, and both only drawing 7 kW stopping other potential users from charging their cars.

As the batteries get bigger so range increases but so does charge time. And one is also carrying more weight with batteries.

An e-bike has between 200 and 600 watt hour batteries, and if they go flat you can peddle. But EV cars start at around 33 kWh and these take maybe 9 hours to charge at home which is fine. But on the road most supermarket car parks have a time limit, so 33/7 = 5 hours approx, but often 90 minute limit, so unless using 22 kW you need to hop from one charge point to another.

We want less cars not more, so want one car which can do all. Be it run to local shops or caravan holiday we want to use same car, this is where it fails. 95% of the time for me a EV is better, saves me having to fill up, as always start with full battery, but that 5% is the bit which can't be replaced by bus or train. The 95% bit I can use e-bike, bus, train and save even more, but as it stands travel time limited to 6 hours, i.e. first bus out, and last one back, I can't get to nearest hospital and back by public transport within the day.

 

[transam]

Ford have released or are about to release an electric engine to retro fit into there classic ? Pick up trucks

it’s a crate engine

reasonable money

than again engines ect are cheaper in the states

 

[ajohn]

my GFs 116d, has a 2.0l diesel and manages mid 60s mpg. I can't see a hybrid doing much better.

One idea of charge and drive is that electric can be used for speed changes. Silly way of looking at it. When some one accelerates they depress the accelerator. When they get to some speed they ease off. Add electric and they ease off a little less to charge a battery. Given the battery is charged that can be used to provide the acceleration. You can see the obvious holes in the idea. However when the vehicle is braked regenerative braking can be added to charge the batter to some extent. One catch with that is what to do if the battery happens to be fully charged. It can still be done but wont be good for the battery. Other than aircon / heating / radio etc an EV doesn't need to use power when stationary. The charge and drive types are probably capable of stopping and starting the engine far more often than those that use a normal car battery or even one that is larger than normal.

Batteries in modern EV's are never fully charged or discharged in normal use. I am assuming Li is the same. It very probably is. The reason is using lots of single cells in series and not being able to produce all of them with exactly the same capacity. So a state of charge range is used that ensures no cells are either over charged or over discharged. If over discharged the circuit means that the remaining good batteries will charge the bad ones up the wrong way round. That is particularly destructive. Capacity of each cell is likely to vary over time with use anyway so servicing very probably involves levelling out the state of charge of all - usually called equalising.

Odd ball vehicles mentioned - really big batteries? Don't think so hydrogen is far more likely. Fuel cells or combustion engines running on it . Most likely fuel cells as combustion engines may be less efficient for various reasons, one is waste heat.They have been run on hydrogen in prototype cars yonks ago now.

Update the entire national grid? LOL somehow I think not. As things stand a charger can be installed in any house that monitors the draw from the mains by the house and uses any more available to charge the battery. That corresponds to some daily range. Afraid I smell a rat though when everyone is doing it. Neither the street wiring or the substations usually see a loading that high. So detect supply voltage as well and take note of the drop. The charger can cope with voltage variation but lower volts means less power going into the battery.

Losses - heat always figures even on an EV. Ohmic losses - helped by pushing the voltage up as high as possible which also mean more cells.

 

[IT Minion]

my GFs 116d, has a 2.0l diesel and manages mid 60s mpg. I can't see a hybrid doing much better.

A Prius does 83 mpg but that's virtually the same in practical terms. It'd probably do much better around town though.

Odd ball vehicles mentioned - really big batteries? Don't think so hydrogen is far more likely. Fuel cells or combustion engines running on it . Most likely fuel cells as combustion engines may be less efficient for various reasons, one is waste heat.They have been run on hydrogen in prototype cars yonks ago now.

Hydrogen vehicles are dead. There have been prototypes and even limited run sales for them for well over a decade.

Right now they're expensive to drive as the fuel cost is higher than petrol. Very expensive to buy, worse than EVs, and utterly impractical to fuel as there are very few file stations and every now and again they get shut for a week. I believe some optimistic people think that green hydrogen fuel costs could some day get close to current petrol prices.

For hydrogen to take off it needs massive volume production of vehicles, which would have to be sold at a loss, massive scaling up of filling infrastructure, which has no confirmed market, massive increases in hydrogen production, distribution and storage.

All the while EVs get better and better and shrink any potential niche hydrogen was planning to take.

 

[ajohn]

All the while EVs get better and better and shrink any potential niche hydrogen was planning to take.

Some don't think so especially in areas like HGV's. One thought that struck me on those is that a load of batteries could be installed under their typical trailers as they are huge. The prime mover - afraid I think not. The holy grail on hydrogen is excess electricity.

Hyundai have recently introduce a hydrogen fuel cell car and Germany is producing trains. Car usage would be much like liquid gas. Some one I know has run with that for yonks. Fulling gets less difficult. The interest in trains is long haul and complications with electrification. They may turn out to be a stop gap and hardly get used at all.

Comparing running costs isn't that simple. For instance theoretically an external combustion engine can only ever achieve a certain level of efficiency. The same applied to internal. That mainly relates to heat but gearboxes figure too. Electric can be rather different but some heat has to figure.

Batteries have a similar limitation. They rely on changing the state of a material as they are charged and discharged. Each gram of material can only achieve so much = 100% of of what it is theoretically capable of. The task is to get as near to that as possible. There are inevitably problems eg

Silicon is an earth abundant element, and is fairly inexpensive to refine to high purity. When alloyed with lithium it has a theoretical capacity of ~3,600 milliampere hours per gram (mAh/g), which is nearly 10 times the energy density of graphite electrodes, which exhibit a maximum capacity of 372 mAh/g for their fully lithiated state of LiC6.[2] One of silicon's inherent traits, unlike carbon, is the expansion of the lattice structure by as much as 400% upon full lithiation (charging). For bulk electrodes, this causes great structural stress gradients within the expanding material, inevitably leading to fractures and mechanical failure, which significantly limits the lifetime of the silicon anodes.
.
It seems Tesla achieve 260 wh/kg with graphite. That doesn't have the same problem which actually is a reason other types of battery can fail. I think Tesla uses coiled construction but not sure - seen as the cheapest way but can have unequal heating problems.

 

[IT Minion]

Some don't think so especially in areas like HGV's. One thought that struck me on those is that a load of batteries could be installed under their typical trailers as they are huge. The prime mover - afraid I think not. The holy grail on hydrogen is excess electricity.

Hyundai have recently introduce a hydrogen fuel cell car and Germany is producing trains. Car usage would be much like liquid gas. Some one I know has run with that for yonks. Fulling gets less difficult. The interest in trains is long haul and complications with electrification. They may turn out to be a stop gap and hardly get used at all.

Comparing running costs isn't that simple. For instance theoretically an external combustion engine can only ever achieve a certain level of efficiency. The same applied to internal. That mainly relates to heat but gearboxes figure too. Electric can be rather different but some heat has to figure.

Batteries have a similar limitation. They rely on changing the state of a material as they are charged and discharged. Each gram of material can only achieve so much = 100% of of what it is theoretically capable of. The task is to get as near to that as possible. There are inevitably problems eg

Silicon is an earth abundant element, and is fairly inexpensive to refine to high purity. When alloyed with lithium it has a theoretical capacity of ~3,600 milliampere hours per gram (mAh/g), which is nearly 10 times the energy density of graphite electrodes, which exhibit a maximum capacity of 372 mAh/g for their fully lithiated state of LiC6.[2] One of silicon's inherent traits, unlike carbon, is the expansion of the lattice structure by as much as 400% upon full lithiation (charging). For bulk electrodes, this causes great structural stress gradients within the expanding material, inevitably leading to fractures and mechanical failure, which significantly limits the lifetime of the silicon anodes.
.
It seems Tesla achieve 260 wh/kg with graphite. That doesn't have the same problem which actually is a reason other types of battery can fail. I think Tesla uses coiled construction but not sure - seen as the cheapest way but can have unequal heating problems.

You're overthinking things. Battery HGVs are going into mass production and use now. Hydrogen ones aren't.

https://www.volvotrucks.co.uk/en-gb/trucks/trucks/volvo-fl/volvo-fl-electric.html

https://www.aboutamazon.co.uk/news/...electric-heavy-goods-vehicles-in-its-uk-fleet

https://www.carwow.co.uk/blog/electric-mercedes-e-actros-truck-hgv-driven-review#gref

Hydrogen HGVs are still at the feasibility study stage. Electric HGVs are simple, stash a Ton of battery under the cab and you've got somewhere around 300-500 miles of range. That's plenty for any route in the UK. It does mean MW level charging to refill in under an hour, but that's just engineering.

 

[Lower]

You're overthinking things. Battery HGVs are going into mass production and use now. Hydrogen ones aren't.

https://www.volvotrucks.co.uk/en-gb/trucks/trucks/volvo-fl/volvo-fl-electric.html

https://www.aboutamazon.co.uk/news/...electric-heavy-goods-vehicles-in-its-uk-fleet

https://www.carwow.co.uk/blog/electric-mercedes-e-actros-truck-hgv-driven-review#gref

Hydrogen HGVs are still at the feasibility study stage. Electric HGVs are simple, stash a Ton of battery under the cab and you've got somewhere around 300-500 miles of range. That's plenty for any route in the UK. It does mean MW level charging to refill in under an hour, but that's just engineering.

Battery HGV's are good for local, short distance deliveries. They aren't any good for longer journeys and heavier loads.

The average HGV does 2500 miles per week, or 500 miles per day. Current battery HGV's will do a max of 300 miles per day, and nothing like that at motorway speeds.

People always forget that the battery vehicles can't achieve anything like their maximum range at motorway speeds.

 

[ajohn]

. It does mean MW level charging to refill in under an hour, but that's just engineering.

Well HGV drivers do have to stop and rest from time to time but the range of the Volvo's doesn't meet all uses. Logistics companies often have pretty large fleets. As I worked on HGV ABS I visited I visited another type. He moves vegetables and other stuff etc around the UK from Norfolk 4 trucks yard in the middle of nowhere.

Your getting me wrong anyway. I'm pointing out difficulties and also that technology doesn't always cough up.

Having worked on EV's something else as well. At some point it will be a case of finding the best solution for mass production and use. This does not mean that the best solution is to just follow previous practice based on ICU usage. For instance I looked at some EV's around 5 years ago, sales man sort of insisted. In this case the batteries were under the boot floor. They could be put in a number of places but that was a cheap answer that reduced boot space. Where they could go depends on type. This one I suspect was nicad. At one point a failed battery meant replacing the lot so they switched to cell changes. Current shape of cars may not be optimal for EV's. Some users might have an interest in being able to change battery packs quickly. Front wheel drive still sensible?

LOL maybe they will finish up looking like large bubble car with down force from fins. Doubt it but who knows.

 

[IT Minion]

Battery HGV's are good for local, short distance deliveries. They aren't any good for longer journeys and heavier loads.

The average HGV does 2500 miles per week, or 500 miles per day. Current battery HGV's will do a max of 300 miles per day, and nothing like that at motorway speeds.

People always forget that the battery vehicles can't achieve anything like their maximum range at motorway speeds.

What's the source on the average distance? I've seen that quoted as the average for long distance HGV drivers. Thats obviously not the same as all HGV drivers.

 

[Lower]

What's the source on the average distance? I've seen that quoted as the average for long distance HGV drivers. Thats obviously not the same as all HGV drivers.

Nothing that i can share on line. It came from a trade publication aimed at fleet managers.

 

[IT Minion]

Stats from here say 405,000 odd licensed and taxed HGVs doing roughly 16.6 Billion miles. Or an Average of 41,000 or so.

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/road-freight-statistics-2019

 

[Lower]

What's the source on the average distance? I've seen that quoted as the average for long distance HGV drivers. Thats obviously not the same as all HGV drivers.

It may be for long distance HGV drivers, but the point remains the same. EV doesn't work yet for long distance HGVs.