Fire door replacement in flats - regs and costs

[YorkshireMidge]

We own a flat close on 40 years old and the management company are replacing all the communal fire doors and also mandating the replacement of the individual flat outer doors too. The doors have never been changed on any of the flats, they have a wired glass window, look a bit on the ugly side and probably are substandard to the point replacement isn't a bad idea after all these years. This is an over 55s complex too.

My question is they are looking to pass on a charge of £1500 to each flat for a solid fire door (including fitting, replacement frames, door hardware, hinges, kick plates, door closers etc.) which feels a bit on the steep side considering there are 38 flats and all will be done, and there can't be more than few hundred quid of materials per flat. There are only two factors I can think of that *might* be pushing the price up:

1. The communal walls are artexed and it is definitely the type with chrysotile in, and it seems likely that cutting the old frames out may at least disturb edges of it.

2. There is currently no proper hold-back solution in place for the existing flat fire doors, so being over 55s, some of the less able have taken door closers off completely even though they shouldn't. It might be the case the management company is planning to finally address that issue and if so, I can see that costing a bit irrespective of whether they use a wired/wireless solution. I've asked them the question what they are doing about the equality law compliance given the problems some residents might have and I'm waiting for an answer. I assume it is a requirement to have a hold back solution on communal doors, but I'm not clear on the situation with individual flat doors.

Thoughts appreciated.

 

[Deleted member 281264]

I'm assuming it's a leasehold flat

Since the work is above £250 the freeholder will have to serve a section 20 notice for major works

If you don't agree with the charges you can take it to the first tier tribunal who will determine whether the charge is reasonable

Read up on section 20 there is more to it.

 

[YorkshireMidge]

It is leasehold, and they have served the section 20 notice which is what has prompted me to look into the cost.

 

[Deleted member 281264]

The second notice for major works (notice of estimates) must be sent by the landlord to each leaseholder and the recognised tenants association, if there is one.

Such notice must include details of at least two estimates that the landlord has obtained. One of the estimates must be from a contractor wholly unconnected with the landlord.

The landlord must invite observations in writing within 30 days and must have regard to any observations received.


This should be the next step where you can query things.

 

[^woody^]

The Landlord/Agent has to carryout fire safety risk assessments to the communal areas by law, and they may well asses the front doors of individual flats to need replacement. However as you lease the flat, unless there is an express condition/agreement granting the landlord/agent rights to work on the flat front door (unlikely), then they have not authority to change your door, and neither does the 2005 FSO (the Act that requires them to carry out the risk assessments) grant them any rights either.

Strictly, you are your own landlord for your flat and the door is your responsibility.

If you agree that the door does need to change, then you can arrange to do that yourself and fit a compliant door and frame.

The landlord/agent can not force a change on you, as they have no authority to enforce. Any enforcement is done by the Fire Service, and they are reluctant to enforce on individual flats because the law is a little grey in this because the Act does not account for this type of situation! Your fire service will however offer advice on your options and may try and coax you to have the door changed if it needs changing, or they may well determine that the door is perfectly OK as it is. Get in touch with your fire safety officer, and arrange a visit.

Flat front doors do require a self closing device.

 

[YorkshireMidge]

Thanks Woody - I believe they have an assessment done, and are acting in good faith on the need for the replacement. I'm comfortable with the position on door closers, but not so clear on hold open devices. i.e. it would seem they would have to fit hold open devices to at least the communal doors. Not so sure about the flat doors. If the price they are quoting includes the install of the sort of closer that allows swing free, but is wired to the alarm panel and closes the door on alarm activation (or is wireless and is triggered by the sound of the alarm) then the price seems to make more sense. Anyway, I've hit them with a couple of emails for clarification and we'll see what comes back.

 

[^woody^]

Hold open devices are an optional, not an essential requirement. They are normally for internal communal doors only - ie doors that may need to be propped open most of the time, but closed in the event of a fire situation. They are not for flat front doors. Typically these devices are for hotels, hospitals, education or buildings were a lot of traffic goes through the corridors where many closed doors could be a hinderance, so are not normally fitted to residential blocks.

If the agent is minded to fit them, then there must be a valid reason, and not just a "nice to have" reason. And the decision should be by consultation and consent with all residents, not by dictate.

 

[YorkshireMidge]

Hold open devices are an optional, not an essential requirement. They are normally for internal communal doors only - ie doors that may need to be propped open most of the time, but closed in the event of a fire situation. They are not for flat front doors. Typically these devices are for hotels, hospitals, education or buildings were a lot of traffic goes through the corridors where many closed doors could be a hinderance, so are not normally fitted to residential blocks.

If the agent is minded to fit them, then there must be a valid reason, and not just a "nice to have" reason. And the decision should be by consultation and consent with all residents, not by dictate.

I see - thanks for the clarification Woody.

 

[Notch7]

A 60min fire door set with hinges, handle, fired door retainer is £708.00incl vat from this co

https://www.safelincs.co.uk/custom-...d30-fd60/?rating=2&finish=38&frame=4&style=20

install is £240 incl vat


If you add on redecoration works, I can see it getting up to £1500 per door -by the time the leaseholder has added on his profit margin 3 times over

 

[YorkshireMidge]

A 60min fire door set with hinges, handle, fired door retainer is £708.00incl vat from this co

https://www.safelincs.co.uk/custom-...d30-fd60/?rating=2&finish=38&frame=4&style=20

install is £240 incl vat


If you add on redecoration works, I can see it getting up to £1500 per door -by the time the leaseholder has added on his profit margin 3 times over

I'd assumed FD30 that being the minimum, but I've asked for breakdown of the cost anyway - so it should be apparent if they have gone for FD60. With it being over 55s, I guess that's possible.

 

[YorkshireMidge]

Well, three years later and this is still rumbling on! Update:

It has been clarified that the doors are indeed ours (the lease was a little unclear), so the management company have taken a step back and won't be managing this, pointed us to a selection of potential reputable suppliers for us to sort out replacement ourselves as a group, and we have a quote in (I believe this was from the only company out of three who responded).

Fire safety officer has done an assessment with the management company's building assessor, who has effectively condemned most of the doors in the development. I was on site with the guy a few weeks back and he showed me one flat door which was so warped, he could get his fingers between the front surface of the door and the frame rebate. Our door isn't anything like as bad, but I am perfectly satisfied why he has marked ours as needing replacement too as he took me through the various points, and why refurb wouldn't resolve them.

I am back to a question mark over the cost which is up to a whopping £1700 per door, but with potential for a bulk discount depending on how many are actually required in the first tranche (a small number of residents are still trying to argue against the recommendation, but I think that is down to wishful thinking on thair part + there may be a small number whose doors COULD potentially be re-furbed, but would still only be "notional FD30" as they could never be tested/certified.

The quote is for full door set (i.e. frame, letter box, handles, door viewer and everything) to FD30S and including making good the decor and fire certifications. The door being quoted is an LPD Oak Vancouver 5P which seems to have a base price on the net of around £150 for the door itself, so I can't see how the entire door set would be more than £500 including a decent supplier margin. So I'm really struggling to get much above £1000/door all in, even if it takes a whole day to do each door, and taking into account the hazard handling around any disturbed Artex in the outside door reveal when the old frame is ripped out.

Thoughts?

 

[Deluks]

If you aren't happy with the price, get more quotes until you are.

A company taking on a job of this size will have other overheads to consider. Parking, insurance, waste removal etc.
They will probably have a regular reliable supplier with whom they have built up a good relationship, (inc. credit terms) and are unlikely to 'shop around on the internet' for the best price.
They are probably trying also trying to make money (aka, a profit) so are not just covering the bare costs and wages.

 

[YorkshireMidge]

If you aren't happy with the price, get more quotes until you are.

A company taking on a job of this size will have other overheads to consider. Parking, insurance, waste removal etc.
They will probably have a regular reliable supplier with whom they have built up a good relationship, (inc. credit terms) and are unlikely to 'shop around on the internet' for the best price.
They are probably trying also trying to make money (aka, a profit) so are not just covering the bare costs and wages.

Thanks for the reply but not an option I'm afraid. We are working to a deadline on this now, and with a couple of companies not even responding to quote requests AFAIK, I'm simply trying to get it clear in my mind whether the price is tolerable all factors considered, or taking the mick. I do understand that any specialist and accredited provider of a particular service is going to charge a premium and probably has much higher overheads than small/local traders. But my feeling was they shouldn't be a LONG way apart either given economies of scale of doing a load of doors in one hit, and I can't see it taking two guys more than half a day to do each door. Average figures suggested on the net for a fire door, do seem to be coming in under the £1K figure I had in my mind. If this is simply the sort of price hike you can expect from a regional specialist, then so be it.

 

[Deluks]

If time is a factor because of a deadline then they have the upper hand when negotiating on price.

 

[blup]

You have had one quote back from the three companies invited. Your argument about price is valid but this is about market forces, competition and availability of skilled chippies (the company will probably sub contract at least some of the work). The price has gone up almost 15% in three years, so even if you get a better price you might have to wait for it and hope you get lucky, and swallow another inflation based increase. As I understand it fire doors are there to stop smoke getting to the habitable rooms. In the light of grenfel most people would be looking to get out asap so is refurbishment of the existing an option for at least some to keep costs down.