car boot find

[Robin0577]

Subject to checking the condition of course, I would actually pay more for a 30 year old one of those than for the new c**p most of the DIY stores are currently selling, some of which is so poorly made it's barely fit for purpose

 

[Jurassicspark]

Subject to checking the condition of course, I would actually pay more for a 30 year old one of those than for the new c**p most of the DIY stores are currently selling, some of which is so poorly made it's barely fit for purpose

Don’t forget to mention the rubbish implementation of USB sockets inbuilt to the extension lead.

Most I’ve seen only output 500mA per usb output. Usually there are four or two. I’d rather have one usb socket delivering double the power with the + pins made in parallel.

I’ve got my old trustworthy extension lead working for around 15 years ago; it’s nothing special. However, the neon lights have not flickered ever since nor has it failed.

All the neon lights in my newer extension leads have started to flicker recently and the timespan hasn’t reached more than five years.

And why do manufacturers (based on my view and experience) use torx or any other screw types that are not as common as a flat head or a Phillips screw to enable anyone to dismantle it? That, I see no point of doing.

 

[sparkwright]

So I decided that I could do with a 4 way extension lead at the opposite end of the shed to most of the sockets.

I recognised this one at the car boot sale and thought "Duraplug is good make and it has the advantage of four decent screw fixing holes to mount it to the studwork.

So I paid my pound for it and brought it home and it was only then I noticed the "makers" name on it!

must be quite old then but all the sockets are nice and tight with only general discolouring of the plastic body.

We had two of these. Circa 1989.

 

[SUNRAY]

And why do manufacturers (based on my view and experience) use torx or any other screw types that are not as common as a flat head or a Phillips screw to enable anyone to dismantle it? That, I see no point of doing.

To prevent people opening but more specifically repairing it

 

[Jurassicspark]

To prevent people opening but more specifically repairing it

I understand your point but this isn't apple or samsung, or even one of the popular monopoly manufactueres.

Lets talk about an extension lead purchased from poundland or even eBay. Some including no name = no shame. Would they want to prevent people opening it? Why? Is it because they think the user is going to open it and ruin it then sue the company which hasn't been listed?

While your rationale for preventing user repairs carries a modicum of validity it generates a parallel question. Would a user upon realizing they are unable to open a simple extension lead not due to any technical limitation, but merely the absence of a screwdriver—be inclined to purchase another product from the same manufacturer who has, whether intentionally or not, made such basic access impractical?

It begins to seem less about safety or reliability, and more about subtly discouraging any form of user intervention.

This is an extension lead. I bet most people don't know what the manufacturer is for the extension lead. Even I do not.

Apple or the other big manufactures probably don't want to deal with the headache that comes with people screwing up their computers/phones/tablets/watched/airpods/laptops and so on and then blaming the manufacturer. There's also the fact (which you were probably implying) that if you can't open your computer then more people are likely to just buy a new one when it goes out of date instead of buying and installing relatively cheap upgrade parts. Would they buy from Apple again? Probably yes even though they couldn't repair the previous device, not trying to contradict myself here but they won't want to buy again from Apple as first they probably knew they were unable to repair it and second, transferring data to a different device which is not manufactured by apple is a pain.

What about the opposite opinion which sounds valid. Do we feel that making a device user serviceable adds value of the device and makes customers more satisfied overall?

 

[SUNRAY]

I have always thought it was to prevent repair and generate further purchase.

Many of this sort of product are welded, clipped or riveted these days

 

[morqthana]

It begins to seem less about safety or reliability, and more about subtly discouraging any form of user intervention.

My guess is that it's more about ease of automating manufacture.

 

[SUNRAY]

My guess is that it's more about ease of automating manufacture.

I'm sure that's way up there in the mix.

 

[Jurassicspark]

My guess is that it's more about ease of automating manufacture.

Could you elaborate a bit more in depth, please?

Ease as in lasting more longer?
Ease as in harvesting the screws more easily?
Ease as in speeding up assembly time?
Ease as in simplifying machine setup?
Ease as in improving quality control?

What is valid in this context is as screwdriver bits such as those eaturing triangular, security, pozidriv, hexagon or, the most common, torx profiles demonstrably outperform traditional phillips or flat head screw designs by vastly providing better grip and engagement with the screw head, and that I genuinely concluded is with using cheap torx bits from ebay, thereby significantly reducing the incidence of camout or slippage and ensuring a more secure retention of the screw within the drive and as a result, the screw head is far less likely to suffer damage or stripping throughout the fastening process.

 

[Deluks]

I’ve got pants that are older than that….

Don't you get them for Christmas???

He does, but he only gets given second hand ones.

 

[morqthana]

Could you elaborate a bit more in depth, please?

As you said

screwdriver bits such as ... torx profiles demonstrably outperform traditional phillips or flat head screw designs by vastly providing better grip and engagement with the screw head

 

[Jurassicspark]

As you said

So then the question becomes which one’s actually worth it in the long run or even the short run concerning these shoddy manufacturers using screw heads like Torx that offer better grip, torque control, and lower risk of stripping during factory assembly, or sticking with more traditional phillips or flathead screws that might not perform quite as well in technical terms but make devices infinitely easier to open, fix, and maintain for the average person? of course Torx does a great job if you're on a production line, assembling 10,000 units a day with a robotic torque driver that needs precision but from the end user's perspective is that extra engineering refinement really worth locking them out of their own stuff? Lets say I want to replace a battery, fix a loose connection, or just understand how their device works, those “superior,special or even rare screw heads suddenly become a barrier and not a feature. It feels like a trade-off where the convenience and efficiency of manufacturers comes at the expense of user autonomy so while torx may win in terms of engineering performance, you have to ask. Is that the most important factor for a home appliance, a light fixture, or a laptop? or is it more valuable to use a screw anyone can open with the tools they already have even if it risks the occasional camout? It's not like people are constantly stripping screws in their kitchwn drawer; for occasional diy, accessibility arguably matters more than millimeter-perfect grip. So in that light, maybe it’s not just about which one is "technically better" maybe it’s about who the product is actually designed to serve. Because if the product ends up lasting longer thanks to easier repairs and modifications by the user, then maybe the Phillips screw or even the flathead deserves more credit than it gets.

Changing the battery in my iPhone oh wait no I would need the pentagon screws. Do I have them? Yes I do. But, do majority of the people have them. Probably not.

Or how about the disgusting vacuum cleaner which has developed sh*t sunction power due to dust getting clogged in the motor or the brushes just solely need replacing after all those years of usage? Oh wait I would need a security torx bit and that can only be purchased online. I'll throw it in the bin. Off it goes in the wasteyard jsut becuase manufacturers wanted to speed up time and make it "easier".

 

[morqthana]

of course Torx does a great job if you're on a production line, assembling 10,000 units a day with a robotic torque driver that needs precision but from the end user's perspective is that extra engineering refinement really worth locking them out of their own stuff?

There is no way in any world except one of the strange ones you concoct in your head that people are "locked out" by Torx screws.

Lets say I want to replace a battery, fix a loose connection, or just understand how their device works, those “superior,special or even rare screw heads suddenly become a barrier and not a feature.

Torx screws are neither special nor rare.

is it more valuable to use a screw anyone can open with the tools they already have even if it risks the occasional camout?

Once upon a time nobody had Pozidriv screwdrivers.

Do you moan that you're "locked out" of maintaining your car because you've only got Whitworth & BSF spanners?

And even if they had Phillips or slotted head screws, good luck to anybody trying to open a laptop or a phone "with the tools they already have".


I agree that using security head screws on home appliances is reprehensible.

 

[Jurassicspark]

There is no way in any world except one of the strange ones you concoct in your head that people are "locked out" by Torx screws.

The idea that Torx screws don’t “lock people out” because the tools are availaable is missing the broader, more important point about user access, ownership, and the right to repair and of course torx bits exist and so do security ones exist too. Of course you can go on Amazon or be that ebay, temu, wish or a random online store or even to a hardware store but not really common here where I am and buy a full set for under 15 pounds probably? That’s not being debated. What is at issue is the intentional design philosdophy behind using fasteners like torx, and how that philosophy contributes to a larger ecosystem of passive resistance to user access a subtle but very real barrier between the consumer and the product they supposedly own.

This isn’t just about whether someone can open something with a torx bit it’s about the growing pattern in product design where manufacturers make choices fasteners, adhesives, software locks, non mnodular components that deliberately or inadvertently discourage the user from opening, repairing, upgrading or even inspecting their own devices. For example recently a friend of mine wanted to change the HDD to a SSD in his old laptop and he could not because he did not have a Y type screw so what did he do? He went to the local market and got it changed. Torx screws, while not proprietary are simply not standard in most households. The average person might have a Phillips screwdriver maybe a flathead. But not much people especially those who aren’t already DIY minded or techsavvy in this case just happen to have a torx set lying around. So when they run into one, even for something simple like replacing a battery or tightening a loose hinge, they often stop right there. That’s what I mean by “locked out.” Not that it’s some kind of unbreakable engineering barrier but that it’s jjust inconvenient and uncommon enough to make most people give up. That’s a form of passive obstruction. It doesn’t scream, “You can’t do this but it implies maybe don’t bother.”


And while Torx screws were originally ddesigned for better torque transfer and reduced cam-out which is great for automated assembly lines let’s not pretend their presence in consumer devices is purely coincidental. Manufacturers know what they’re doing. Using a less common fastener reduces the chances of tampering, repair, or modification. It's a deterrent dont you agree. It gives companies control over repair workflows, channels customers toward proprietary service centres, and reduces the lifespan of the product in the hands of the user this isn’t some wild conspiracy theory it's a well documented trend. Just look at Apple’s pentalobe screws, which are functionally no better than Phillips or Torx, but were introduced precisely because they weren’t available to consumers at the time. Or look at tractors and medical equipment with software locks that legally prevent repairs unless authorized. Torx might not be as restrictive as those examples, but it’s on the same spectrum. It reflects a mindset where the user is not expected to be a participant in the maintenance or longevity of their own property, but instead is relegated to the role of passive consumer.


So no, I’m not suggesting that Torx is some insidious or the evil screw type which you probably think I am. I’m saying that every little design choice including the fasteners used either moves us closer to a world where people can fix and understand their own devices or one where access is controlled ownership is superficial, and everything is disposable. If you genuinely believe in user empowerment, if you care about sustainability and reducing e waste, then you should at least acknowledge that while torx might not be a hard lockout, it is part of a larger design ecosystem that systematically nudges people away from repair and toward replacement. That matters not because a Torx bit is expensive or rare, but because design isn't neutral. Every choice sends a message about who products are for, the users or the companies that made them

When I said people are “locked out” by torx screws, i wasn’t talking about a literal lock where you physically can’t get in. It’s more like those devices before that used special chargers instead of a standard USB cable or something similar. Sure, you can find and buy the right charger online, but most people just have a drawer full of common chargers that don’t fit. It’s not impossible to power your device, but that extra step and inconvenience means many users won’t bother or will have to spend extra time and money to do something that should be simple. Torx screws work the same way they’re not an absolute lock, but they create a small, intentional inconvenience that discourages casual access. So when I say “locked out,” I mean this kind of subtle, practical barrier that makes people feel like their device isn’t really theirs to tinker with or fix easily.

I didn’t know you didn’t know metaphors existed. When I said “locked out,” I wasn’t meaning it literally. It was just a way to express how torx screws can make it harder or less inviting for the average person to open or fix their own stuff.

Torx screws are neither special nor rare.

Not rare but rare in a common household?

For the average person who never touched DIY in their life or any level of component repair except from banging a nail into the wall for a clock or turning a flathead screw to change the thermostat temperature.

Once upon a time nobody had Pozidriv screwdrivers.

And there will be a time where we will be saying once upon a time nobody had flying cars.

Do you moan that you're "locked out" of maintaining your car because you've only got Whitworth & BSF spanners?

They were more standard back then and I don't think I'll be able to repair my cars with what example you have provided.

And even if they had Phillips or slotted head screws, good luck to anybody trying to open a laptop or a phone "with the tools they already have".

You're getting there.

I agree that using security head screws on home appliances is reprehensible.

What if its aim is to protect the user?
What if its to prevent tampering?
What if its to prevent the void of warranty?

 

[morqthana]

Of course you can ... buy a full set for under 15 pounds probably? That’s not being debated.

So buy them.

Actually, I agree with what you say about companies putting obstacles in the way of people repairing their stuff, or "unauthorised" repair businesses doing work, but I think you're over-reacting wrt Torx head screws.

I'm actually far more concerned about companies turning off servers which products need to connect to to work, or bricking devices which had been sold on the basis of a one-off full purchase price and then demanding monthly susbcription payments to make them work again, or deleting digital downloads which had been sold on the basis of a one-off full purchase price from people's libraries, or using Ts&Cs to redefine words like "buy", "sell", "purchase", "own", or having password-protected reset codes for EV battery packs, than I am screwhead choice.

Torx screws, while not proprietary are simply not standard in most households.

Maybe they should become so, these days.

The average person might have a Phillips screwdriver maybe a flathead. But not much people especially those who aren’t already DIY minded or techsavvy in this case just happen to have a torx set lying around.

Maybe people like that shouldn't be opening things up?

When you open up a phone, or a laptop, you'll find components right to the very edge of the case. So whose "fault" is it if, even after they've removed the screws, someone breaks something by using a screwdriver to lever the case open because they don't own a spudger?

Just look at Apple’s pentalobe screws, which are functionally no better than Phillips or Torx, but were introduced precisely because they weren’t available to consumers at the time.

Apple have always been venal scum when it comes to them keeping their sticky fingers on repair actions.

So no, I’m not suggesting that Torx is some insidious or the evil screw type which you probably think I am.

I do think you're investing too much insidiousness and evil into the choice of them.

Not rare but rare in a common household?
View attachment 389895

I think I'm a lot readier than you to simply say that maybe these days it should be "usual" for people to have Torx screwdrivers.

But I agree, it doesn't end there - what about pentalobe, tri-wing, hex-head, security heads...

Seriously - if you want to take the fight to companies blocking people's ability to repair, there are more significant, and more urgent, battles to fight than what screws are used.

They were more standard back then and I don't think I'll be able to repair my cars with what example you have provided.

Not sure what you mean by "I don't think I'll be able to repair my cars with what example you have provided." - the point I was making is that once upon a time people's shed/garage toolbox contained Whitworth & BSF spanners, and nobody is complaining that now it has to have imperial and metric A/F.

You're getting there.

You missed the point - I probably wasn't explicit enough.

You'd been complaining about people facing hurdles because all they have are flat-head and Phillips screwdrivers. My point was that even if the head type wasn't an issue, even if laptops and phones only used slotted and Phillips screws, people still wouldn't be able to open them with the tools in the old biscuit tin in their kitchen drawer, unless they'd thought to equip themselves with 1mm flat-heads and PH000s.

What if its aim is to protect the user?
What if its to prevent tampering?
What if its to prevent the void of warranty?

It is not the job of a nannying, patronising, manufacturer to "protect" his customers by preventing them from removing screws.

If I buy something it becomes mine (or at least, it should), so if I want to tamper with it, that's down to me.

And makers cannot void warranties just because a customer has opened something. Take my example above - removing the screws and popping open the case of a laptop to replace the battery does not void any warranty on the motherboard. Removing the screws and popping open the case by jamming a big screwdriver in the edge and thus ripping a SMD off the motherboard does.