Found it how can I fix it?

[OhGranny]

Simple for someone who does it all day. Will the central heating be ok it should have anti corrosion in it.

 

[Madrab]

Spot corrosion - may need to find out whether is a current leak or something else that is causing that as it could be effecting other copper in the property. Are the pipes electrically bonded?

Hard to say re plastic - all comes down to how much is needed of what size really and then how many fittings and of what type.

If the CH has been inhibited then it should be ok, again though they should be bonded.

 

[denso13]

Will the central heating be ok it should have anti corrosion in it.

If it's not leaking it will be fine with inhibitor in it, if it is still leaking it'll need fixing.

 

[OhGranny]

Got plumber coming to take a look esp. bonding. Thanks

 

[denso13]

Got plumber coming to take a look esp. bonding.

A plumber won't know about the bonding criteria/electrical tests, it is highly unlikely that it is required.

 

[Madrab]

A plumber won't know about the bonding criteria/electrical tests, it is highly unlikely that it is required.

Certainly would agree that it won't be the plumber that would normally perform the electrical testing but bonding criteria?

Not sure why a plumber wouldn't know about bonding criteria and if needed, when checking the pipework, should be able to identify it or note the lack of it. I'm a plumber and have know about bonding and it's requirement when fitting/working with metal pipework and metal baths etc we were taught it as part of our LVL2&3 certs in college way back when.

Not saying that it is the cause of the pinholes but it is certainly well known that copper, especially lower grade copper, can suffer pinholing by stray electrical currents as well as by galvanic processes with certain water types, which correctly bonded pipework could correct.

Always best practice to have all metal pipework in the home bonded even if only from a personal safety perspective, I also believe it's a requirement under Part P

 

[denso13]

Always best practice to have all metal pipework in the home bonded even if only from a personal safety perspective, I also believe it's a requirement under Part P

Not nowadays with RCDs fitted, supplementary bonding just isn't required. The are no regulations that require copper heating pipes to have supplementary bonding just for the sake of it.

Some will argue it is more dangerous to bond something that doesn't need it, no mention at all in Part P of the building regulations l.

 

[Madrab]

Seems there is a significant difference of opinion when it comes to bonding, especially after the clarification in the 18th edition and the reference in Part P specifying that all electrical work be safe and Part P specifies that BS 7671 is used to define what safe means. That standard is very specific about what should be bonded, that includes all metal pipework and sinks/baths etc within the property, that includes water, CH, gas, etc.

It all seems to depend on who is asked though they do still teach the importance of bonding in C&G 6189 (6129) LVL 2&3, being a requirement with any metal pipework installed as part of the any system in the home that isn't connected to the electrical system, especially now that water mains etc are all now being transitioned to plastic, so there is no longer a permanent path to ground.

 

[denso13]

Seems there is a significant difference of opinion when it comes to bonding, especially after the clarification in the 18th edition and the reference in Part P specifying that all electrical work be safe and Part P specifies that BS 7671 is used to define what safe means. That standard is very specific about what should be bonded, that includes all metal pipework and sinks/baths etc within the property, that includes water, CH, gas, etc.

It all seems to depend on who is asked though they do still teach the importance of bonding in C&G 6189 (6129) LVL 2&3, being a requirement with any metal pipework installed as part of the any system in the home that isn't connected to the electrical system, especially now that water mains etc are all now being transitioned to plastic, so there is no longer a permanent path to ground.

Sorry, that just isn't correct.

What is the actual regulation that says all metal pipework must be supplementary bonded?

It isn't "bonding" it's supplementary bonding. Only extraneous conductive parts get bonded, not just anything metal.

 

[Madrab]

What is the actual regulation that says all metal pipework must be supplementary bonded?

I don't think I actually said everything has to be supplementary bonded, I just said bonded, though if I did then happy to correct that. Bonding could be either main protective, say in the case of gas or water entering the building or supplementary bonding, say in bathrooms

This takes away from the fact that plumbers are still taught about electrical safety and that bonding may be needed when it comes to the installation of metal pipework for gas, water and fixtures within a dwelling, it's part of the technical quals. Who else would suggest to the client that the new copper pipework or steel bath they've just installed may need bonded and get an electrician in to check, other than the plumber installing it. Plumbers wouldn't need to know it the electrical system has RCD's or RCBO's installed.

It is also well known that stray electrical current - even induced current - can cause corrosion within metal/copper pipework, if the conditions are right.

 

[denso13]

This takes away from the fact that plumbers are still taught about electrical safety and that bonding may be needed when it comes to the installation of metal pipework for gas, water and fixtures within a dwelling, it's part of the technical quals.

The law is clear, if you cannot verify main bonding on gas then you are advised to get someone competent to check. Not for the plumber to do it him/ herself.

Supplementary bonding is rarely required nowadays, but there are electrical tests which can clarify if in any doubt.

 

[denso13]

Plumbers wouldn't need to know it the electrical system has RCD's or RCBO's installed.

With respect, yes they do, to be able to advise on supplementary bonding.

 

[JohnW2]

Seems there is a significant difference of opinion when it comes to bonding, especially after the clarification in the 18th edition and the reference in Part P specifying that all electrical work be safe and Part P specifies that BS 7671 is used to define what safe means.

That is nonsense. "Part P" of the building Regs is just one sentence, which says nothing about BS7671. All it does say is:

“Reasonable provision shall be made in the design and installation of electrical installations in order to protect persons operating, maintaining or altering the installations from fire or injury.”

That standard is very specific about what should be bonded, that includes all metal pipework and sinks/baths etc within the property, that includes water, CH, gas, etc.

That is also rubbish. BS7671 indicates when 'main bonding' (of pipes entering the house from outside/underground) is (and is not) required, but most of the requirements for ('supplementary') bonding within a building (sinks/baths/whatever) disappeared years ago, primarily because of the appearance of RCDs.

It all seems to depend on who is asked though they do still teach the importance of bonding in C&G 6189 (6129) LVL 2&3, being a requirement with any metal pipework installed as part of the any system in the home that isn't connected to the electrical system ...

I can't speak for 'what is being taught' but, as above, that is again nearly all nonsense.

, especially now that water mains etc are all now being transitioned to plastic, so there is no longer a permanent path to ground.

You're thinking seems back-to-front. It is because an increasing proportion of water/gas supply pipes are plastic that even 'main bonding' (of pipes entering building) is often not required these days. When the supply pipes are metal, thereby providing a 'permanent path to ground', that is a potential problem, not a 'benefit'!

 

[JohnW2]

It is also well known that stray electrical current - even induced current - can cause corrosion within metal/copper pipework, if the conditions are right.

True, and in some circumstances 'bonding' can make that worse - but what is your point?

 

[Madrab]

@ johnw2

As suggested this all came out of whether it could be one reason why copper pipework was pinholing and whether plumbers should know about bonding or not.

I am not sure then why so many bodies seem to specify about bonding and about how important it can be when it comes to domestic installations? As suggested it is still taught as part of the tech certs for plumbing. TB102 also ask for bonding for gas supplies close to the meter. Hence why asking the questions around when and where is bonding required according to the electricians.

I also found that BS 7671:2018 Regulation 411.3.1.2 requires that;
“In each installation main protective bonding conductors complying with Chapter 54 shall connect to the main earthing terminal extraneous-conductive-parts including the following:
(i) Water installation pipes
(ii) Gas installation pipes
(iii) Other installation pipework and ducting
(iv) Central heating and air conditioning systems
(v) Exposed metallic structural parts of the building.”
Does this not mean that these installed system should be bonded or is my interpretation of that reg incorrect?

Why is it also when electricians are brought in to check pipework in domestic situation bonding is one of the areas that is brought up all the time as a requirement with metal pipework? See it happening all the time, I'm back to service the boiler and the electrician has bonded all the pipework or is that just a money making exercise and it shouldn't actual be needed? And then bonding is applied @ boiler pipework and the requirement to have gas pipes bonded close to the meter.

I appreciate that supplementary bonding may no longer be a necessity but it can still found regularly, again I see it all the time when working, especially with properties with older CU's - that then goes back to my questions in the electrical forum as to what and what isn't actually required.