Well Graded sand for Natural Hydraulic Lime

mrbenn · 23 May 2011

Hi,

Decided I want the extension build with Natural Hydraulic Lime 3.5, builders happy to give it a try. Only problem I'm finding is someone locally ( I live near Chester) to supply what the spec's say is 'Well Graded' washed sharp sand. I take it well graded mean a mix of different different grain sizes? Both the sand suppliers I've spoken to so far, don't have any idea.

Any pointers?

Thanks,

Sean.

andyb30 · 23 May 2011

these are the lads i use when doing specialist lime works.
i know its in yorkshire but give them a ring they are always happy to help.

http://www.womersleys.co.uk/

geraint · 23 May 2011

mrbenn said:
Hi,

Decided I want the extension build with Natural Hydraulic Lime 3.5, builders happy to give it a try. Only problem I'm finding is someone locally ( I live near Chester) to supply what the spec's say is 'Well Graded' washed sharp sand. I take it well graded mean a mix of different different grain sizes? Both the sand suppliers I've spoken to so far, don't have any idea.

Any pointers?

Thanks,

Sean.

there is a big difference between hydrated lime and hydraulic lime....

what are you after...

you will not be able to purchase the correct sand with hydraulic from your local merchants...

hotrod · 23 May 2011

mrbenn said:
Decided I want the extension build with Natural Hydraulic Lime 3.5, builders happy to give it a try.

Be very wary of tradesmen who have never worked with lime mortar before. It behaves differently to a standard cement:sand mortar and takes some getting used to. I would not advise you engage anyone to use it who is not suitably skilled and familiar with it as it will be on view for all to see.

mrbenn · 23 May 2011

Thanks for your replies guys. I struggled to find a brickie that had worked with lime mortar, apart from a very young chap who I didn't have much faith in.

We've used this brickie before, and we like the quality of his work, albeit in cement.

Is it really that much of a big step for a good brickie? According to the singleton birch website (ok they are biased as they flog the stuff), they say:

Is lime more difficult to use than cement ?
A: Generally no, a little extra preparation and aftercare is needed but this is very simple and shouldn’t take much time.

This is 'Hydraulic' lime not hydrated, so it should go off eventually. I understand it's harder to mix, and you have to cover the work up after laying, and not to let it dry too quickly.

Maybe I'm looking at this too simplistically. but there is part of me that want to give it a try

The house will be built with reclaimed bricks.

Thanks,

Sean

hotrod · 24 May 2011

Hi sean,

You need to use sharp sand (aka grit sand or concreting sand dependant on what the merchant chooses to call it locally). Have you decided what ratio you're going to use yet? As stated earlier you need to be take care when choosing a bricklayer that they are familiar with using this stuff as it behaves slightly differently 'off the trowel'.

I'm by no means an expert in the use of lime mortars but I've used it a couple of times. I know Stuart45 is familiar with lime mortars so maybe you'll get lucky and he'll see this thread and add his wisdom, or one of the other guys who have more experiance in it's use than me.

hth

theoldun · 24 May 2011

Sean.
Could write you a book on lime. Would love to go back 60 years and slake some to putty. Add pozzalans, and just the right mix of graded aggregate. mix it and lay brick with it.
Unfortunately, this knowledge has mainly been lost and forgotten, except what you can read in books, and reading in a book and doing it on site are two different things.
Would suggest you do not even think about using lime mortar, even though you can buy hydraulic NHL 3.5 lime mortar mixed with aggregate in 25kg bags ready to tip into mixer and just add water. Cost of materials to lay 1000 brick, including VAT and delivery £400.00 to £420.00. Compare that price to sand and cement, and it makes you cough.
If you are using re-claims, we would use 1-1-6 mix cement lime sand and splash of Febmix admix..
The shovel of lime, will lighten the colour up, reduce shrinkage and give the muck a nice bit of fat. She will have enough fat in her to lay the bricks her self.
My son is using that mix at the moment with re-claims in conservation area in London. He did three sample panels for conservation tw*ts and that is the one they picked out.
Sorry to have rambled on a bit Stay loose.

oldun

theoldun · 24 May 2011

hotrod said:
Hi sean,

choosing a bricklayer that they are familiar with using this stuff as it behaves slightly differently 'off the trowel'.

hth

Lime mortar behaves in the same way as getting a ship into a bottle.
Have a long memory hotrod

oldun cool machoman

roughcaster · 24 May 2011

theoldun said:
Sean.
Could write you a book on lime. Would love to go back 60 years and slake some to putty. Add pozzalans, and just the right mix of graded aggregate. mix it and lay brick with it.
Unfortunately, this knowledge has mainly been lost and forgotten, except what you can read in books, and reading in a book and doing it on site are two different things.
Would suggest you do not even think about using lime mortar, even though you can buy hydraulic NHL 3.5 lime mortar mixed with aggregate in 25kg bags ready to tip into mixer and just add water. Cost of materials to lay 1000 brick, including VAT and delivery £400.00 to £420.00. Compare that price to sand and cement, and it makes you cough.
If you are using re-claims, we would use 1-1-6 mix cement lime sand and splash of Febmix admix..
The shovel of lime, will lighten the colour up, reduce shrinkage and give the muck a nice bit of fat. She will have enough fat in her to lay the bricks her self.
My son is using that mix at the moment with re-claims in conservation area in London. He did three sample panels for conservation tw*ts and that is the one they picked out.
Sorry to have rambled on a bit Stay loose.

oldun

Nice one Oldun.

stuart45 · 24 May 2011

Sean,
Is there any particular reason for using lime mortar? If it's the colour you can play around with a mix of white cement and normal ( some use 50/50) to achieve a lime like colour.
As oldun stated using NHL is about 6 times the cost of sand/cement mortar.
Hodrod is also correct about the differences in using it. Finishing the joints off takes a bit of care and knowledge.

amwc · 26 May 2011

Hi If you have a awbs builders merchant by you there sand in a 50 50 mix is normally quite good. If however you want a realy light coloured mortar you should play around with a 5:1 silver sand/ sharp sand with 1.5 part hydraulic lime. High price for the whole build though better to build in a cement mortar and point with the above mix

ABCwarrior · 26 May 2011

I'm at a loss as to why you'd want to use NHL too, given it's brickwork. Could understand it if it's a decent sandstone but the cost is much higher, and in general the mix has to be stronger(than sand/cement) so it doesn't go as far- we typically use 3:1.
On our NPA in Conservation Masonry course we were advised never to add cement to hydraulic lime to help it "go off" as the lime is alkaline and cement is acidic- hydrated lime is ok to add as a plasticiser and make it a bit more workable and that's what general BM's sell anyway.
On sandstone with recessed beds/joints it looks ok but it can make brickwork look pretty messy if flush with the face.
And the aftercare while the lime carbonates properly takes ages- we've left work covered for weeks.
If it's external work open to the weather in an exposed location too I'd be going for a stiffer mix using NHL 5, not 3.5. It's better mixed drier too- too wet and the shrinkage is horrific, but this drier mix also makes it harder to use...!(easily falling off the trowel/hawk/pointing key)

roughcaster · 26 May 2011

There's been some "great advice" given to Mr Ben on this topic.

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Well Graded sand for Natural Hydraulic Lime

geraint

hotrod

hotrod

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