When replacing original sash windows, how much is removed?

d000hg · 26 Jun 2017

We've a lot of large, original sash windows in our Victorian house. Typically the glazed area is about 3' wide by 6' high, each sash having 2 panes about 12x36 inches.

We're considering having at least some replaced with modern UPVC (while retaining others as features most likely) in order to get double-glazed, efficient windows as I understand any method of getting double-glazing into the existing frames is likely to cost more.

I'm unsure exactly which bits of the frame and sill would normally be removed though. You've got the window itself, then the recess is about 2" on all sides around that, presumably to house the sash mechanism mostly. Then the insides are panelled, with edging where the panelling meets the interior of the wall.

d000hg · 26 Jun 2017

ronniecabers · 27 Jun 2017

Personal preference really... some of our customers want all that wood removed , others just want the sashes and ' box ' frame removed, especially if we are refitting Upvc sliding sash windows

d000hg · 27 Jun 2017

ronniecabers said:
Personal preference really... some of our customers want all that wood removed , others just want the sashes and ' box ' frame removed, especially if we are refitting Upvc sliding sash windows

It sounds like you're in the trade... Do you happen to have a photo of the 2nd option you've done?

God · 27 Jun 2017

I got a photo of upvc vertical sliders into existing boxes. Give me a while to upload it

God · 27 Jun 2017

geraldthehamster · 28 Jun 2017

It would be an awful shame to devalue your house by doing this. I'd consider secondary glazing.

d000hg · 28 Jun 2017

I can't see it would devalue it... we would have considered the place worth more with modern, efficient windows as long as they were nice ones.
Secondary glazing is really ugly in my opinion, doesn't avoid any issues associated with wooden frames, and surely makes opening the things a pain? I thought it was only used in listed buildings to appease the council

But happy to explore all options if you want to argue your case - they ARE lovely windows. But they would lose much of their charm with secondary glazing in my view, the lovely thing about them is the single pane makes it seem like there is no glass there at all almost.

If we don't need to open the sashes, which in some rooms we don't, can I just glaze in a double-glazed panel if the frame is in good shape? They have mostly been looked after.

geraldthehamster · 28 Jun 2017

If you love the single pane and the painted wooden frame, you'd lose that completely with a double glazed plastic window. Why do you want to change them? If you are conscious of cold, or draughts, heavy curtains are effective. If it's a noise issue, secondary glazing with a decent gap is more effective than double glazing.

It's not really practical to fit double glazed units into single glazed sash frames - the glazing bars will be too shallow. Secondary glazing can be very slim and unobtrusive.

People pay for original features.

TheVictorian · 28 Jun 2017

My personal opinion as your windows seem in fair condition is that you should keep them. You say that you wnt to improve the efficiency but any cost saving is likely to be a fraction of the price to replace the windows.

I had to replace mine as they were in terrible condition and most had been replaced many years ago with cheap casement windows. I went for timber ones on the front and UPVC on the rear of the house. Mine were sunk into the old box space by about 20mm each side and packed in with treated timber.

Tigercubrider · 28 Jun 2017

There are double glazing options for sash windows, albeit expensive.
Friends had it done to a Georgian house, you could hardly notice , also the frames were routed and a brush type seal incorporated

d000hg · 28 Jun 2017

Each half of the window - is this the 'sash' or a different term? - is getting on 2" thick so there's certainly room for the thickness of double glazing if we had new plastic/wooden windows. While I've seen some good UPVC ones I worry they'd not be great.

Cost-wise, I thought the point was you would recoup your cost after some years, otherwise nobody would recommend doing it. We plan to be here forever!

Another consideration is that we have sash windows virtually everywhere. In several rooms I can't imagine we'd ever want to use them (many are painted shut) so a simple 2X2 window could presumably let a bit more light in due to smaller casing - and would be cheaper and less draughty than a sash.

It's tricky. They are nice features but they were not created to be anything other than the best they could do at the time. Nostalgia has its place but the previous owners were spending £300/MONTH on heating. I think we'll probably try replacing one window at the back and see how it goes - one room already has modern double-glazed windows in all but one window so replacing that sash would not 'ruin' the room, we could then see how we feel.
If we could simply inset double-glazed panes in the existing frames it would be a nice option, though then the maintenance issues remain... lots and lots of wood to paint every year which is either our time or a considerable extra cost factor as well as the heating.

geraldthehamster · 28 Jun 2017

To be fair, the people recommending plastic windows are mostly the people selling plastic windows. They have a design life of 25 years at most. If you're concerned about energy cost, you'd have to stay in your house an awfully long time, to start seeing any payback. Secondary glazing is almost as good for thermal efficiency, and better for noise. It's also non-destructive and removable.

As far as design goes, the windows in your house, be it Georgian, Victorian or Edwardian, are part of the overall aesthetic of the house, in their style, proportions, and the mouldings used.

d000hg · 28 Jun 2017

I've been researching on Google about how sash windows fit together, the one thing that is not mentioned - perhaps because it's so obvious - is how the panes (lights?) are held in place in the sash. I've got 2x2 windows mostly so I have a single glazing bar in each sash... each pane is held on one side by the glazing bar and on the other 3 by the frame of the sash itself i.e. up against stiles/rails as I understand the terminology.

Would I expect there to be a groove cut in the wood to house the pane, or would two layers of wood effectively sandwich the glass? When replacing a broken pane there must be an easy way to get the new pane in especially considering how crazy-thin the panes are, seemingly only a few mm... I thought windows used putty so the pane was basically 'floating' inside the frame, with the putty locking it in place, but I can't see evidence of that here.

Gerrydelasel · 28 Jun 2017

d000hg said:
how the panes (lights?) are held in place in the sash.

Either putty or thin wood glazing bead nailed in place.

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When replacing original sash windows, how much is removed?

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