ICE told to get the eff out

Highway Man · 2026-01-16T13:09:49+0000

MNW67 said:
I have no idea. And it is completely irrelevant. The only issue is whether she was doing to obstruct the agents. And she was obviously wasn't, because she wasn't obstructing anybody. Traffic was flowing freely.

Could you explain traffic flowing freely whilst having to slow down and go around her car?

noseall · 2026-01-16T13:10:24+0000

motorbiking said:
Imagine it was in the U.K. and police were doing a road check, imagine you parked your car sideways across the street and waved people to go around you. Plod come up to you and say any reason you are stopped like this and you say, no.

Do you think they’d tell you to move and if you refunded do you think they’d have grounds to do you for obstructing the highway or worse?

Those straws are truly being strangled now.

motorbiking said:
Come on, stop being daft.

MNW67 · 2026-01-16T13:11:46+0000

Highway Man said:
Why are you twisting his words, you are not understanding at all.

I am using MBK's own words. He had admitted that there was no actual obstruction of the agents. Now he is making a complex legal argument about what was going on in Renee's mind and whether the agents were right to suspect that she might be attempting to obstruct them.

motorbiking · 2026-01-16T13:12:27+0000

MNW67 said:
I have no idea. And it is completely irrelevant. The only issue is whether she was doing to obstruct the agents. And she was obviously wasn't, because she wasn't obstructing anybody. Traffic was flowing freely.

The only issue is whether [a reasinable person] would think ~~she was~~ they were attempting to obstruct the agents.

You've stated in your own words that you've no idea what she was doing, but at the same time you are certain she was not attempting to cause an obstruction. Not really passing the reasonable person test are you?

MNW67 · 2026-01-16T13:19:39+0000

motorbiking said:
The only issue is whether [a reasinable person] would think ~~she was~~ they were attempting to obstruct the agents.

I am happy to discuss that. It is an interesting angle.

Just let me clarify what you are saying.

You have accepted that Renee hadn't actually obstructed the agents.

And you are arguing that what it comes down to is whether a reasonable person would think that a woman, parked across one lane of a two lane street, pipping her horn, was attempting to obstruct an operation being carried out more than a hundred yards away.

motorbiking · 2026-01-16T13:24:24+0000

MNW67 said:
I am happy to discuss that. It is an interesting angle.

are you sure?

MNW67 said:
Just let me clarify what you are saying.

You have accepted that she hadn't actually obstructed the agents.

We do not know from the short videos available. The Agent certainly felt the pair of them were interfering and causing an obstruction. He put his lights and sirens on and approached.

MNW67 said:
And you are arguing that what it comes down to is whether a reasonable person would think that a woman, parked across one lane of a two lane street, pipping her horn, was attempting to obstruct an operation being carried out more than a hundred yards away.

what else could you reasonably argue she was doing?

MNW67 · 2026-01-16T13:29:04+0000

motorbiking said:
what else could you reasonably argue she was doing?

I have no idea. Maybe she wanted a better view. Maybe she just wanted to make it obvious to them that she was observing them. But you are trying to reverse the burden of proof.

motorbiking said:
We do not know from the short videos available. The Agent certainly felt the pair of them were interfering and causing an obstruction. He put his lights and sirens on and approached.

We do not know that at all. ICE agents have made hundreds of illegal arrests. Maybe he was just peed off at her for pipping her horn and wanted to teach her a lesson.

At least you have accepted that there is no evidence so far that she was actually obstructing them.

motorbiking · 2026-01-16T13:34:54+0000

MNW67 said:
I have no idea.

apparently

MNW67 said:
Maybe she wanted a better view.

this is not a reasonable assessment

MNW67 said:
Maybe she just wanted to make it obvious that she was observing them.

this is not a reasonable assessment

MNW67 said:
But you are trying to reverse the burden of proof.

You need to read up on Probable Cause, its more than reasonable suspicion, but substantially less than you pretend.

MNW67 said:
We do not know that at all. ICE have made hundreds of illegal arrests. Maybe he was just peed off at her pipping her horn and wanted to teach her a lesson.

by doing what?

MNW67 · 2026-01-16T13:35:37+0000

motorbiking said:
by doing what?

Arresting her illegally.

MNW67 · 2026-01-16T13:39:40+0000

Despite all the waffle and deflections, what it still comes down to is how a woman in a car, pipping her horn, could be attempting to obstruct an ICE operation being carried out more than a hundred yards away.

motorbiking · 2026-01-16T13:43:11+0000

MNW67 said:
Despite all the waffle and deflections, what it still comes down to is how a woman in a car, pipping her horn, could be attempting to obstruct an ICE operation being carried out more than a hundred yards away.

Earlier in the thread you felt the first shot was lawful, how did you conclude that the shooting was lawful, but the attempt to stop and question the pair was not?

MNW67 · 2026-01-16T13:46:02+0000

motorbiking said:
Earlier in the thread you felt the first shot was lawful, how did you conclude that the shooting was lawful, but the attempt to stop and question the pair was not?

I said I was undecided on whether the first shot was lawful. We still don't have enough information.

It doesn't matter in the USA whether law enforcement are acting illegally. They still have a right to defend themselves e.g. if they are conducting an illegal search.

Vinty · 2026-01-16T14:01:25+0000

ellal said:
As regards N.I. all people should be held accountable for their 'excesses' (as you call the murders), because humanity has a place in every situation...

Having said that, you are right in essentially saying they shouldn't have been put in that situation in the first place...

But we all know that no-one will ever be called to account for the decision to send them in!

These ICE agents in America dress and behave more like Paramilitaries than ordinary immigration officers.

This causes tension in the communities they target , if they had a different approach then these standoff situations with residents could be avoided , but then again Trump and his supporters love the Rambo style approach to law enforcement, even if American citizens get killed.

motorbiking · 2026-01-16T14:09:18+0000

An unfortunate consequence of having firearm ownership widespread in the US. For many owning and using a gun, is part of being American.

Vinty · 2026-01-16T14:12:33+0000

motorbiking said:
Do you think they’d tell you to move and if you refused do you think they’d have grounds to do you for obstructing the highway or worse?

As a matter of interest, what is the penalty in the UK for obstructing the highway.
A ticket, or a fine maybe.
Don't you think a bullet in the head would be a tad excessive.

ICE told to get the eff out

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