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daniely87
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yes the hot and cold services have to be ducted, I dont quite get what your asking with the secondary return, yes the runs from the mixer to the shower will be a dead leg but it will be an active dead leg so perfectly acceptable, 1,2 meters from what to what? you,ll have to give a bit more information.
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daniely87
sorry for not being so clear, i was told 1.2metres maximum from the mixer to the furthest tap, mixer to furthest shower...? but also how far from the mixer can the secondary return go, at the moment it is in the floor just before the pipework comes out
also, regarding the pipework in ducting, ok, it is in ducting through the walls, but what if there are numerous T's in the pipework, the ducting will be rendered useless as we could never pull a pipe through there unless we dig the floor and remove all the T's, ok the floor may move, but the pipe only loosely fixed in the insulation sheets anyway, i cannot see anywhere in the WRAS about pipes and i have spoken to 3 plumbers, none of which are particularly bad and none know anything about ducting except through walls, thanks again!
also, regarding the pipework in ducting, ok, it is in ducting through the walls, but what if there are numerous T's in the pipework, the ducting will be rendered useless as we could never pull a pipe through there unless we dig the floor and remove all the T's, ok the floor may move, but the pipe only loosely fixed in the insulation sheets anyway, i cannot see anywhere in the WRAS about pipes and i have spoken to 3 plumbers, none of which are particularly bad and none know anything about ducting except through walls, thanks again!
the secondary return is just a loop from the hot water cylinder to the outlets and back to the cylinder, the nearer you can get the connection the the outlet the better but there is no regulation distance that I know of,have a look here
http://net.grundfos.com/doc/webnet/...llers-wholesalers/the-solution/family-houses/
the hot and cold services have to go in ducting, you can buy this ready made or set two battens on the floor before the floor is screeded, install your pipes and then cover the pipes with a ply top level with the screed.
http://net.grundfos.com/doc/webnet/...llers-wholesalers/the-solution/family-houses/
the hot and cold services have to go in ducting, you can buy this ready made or set two battens on the floor before the floor is screeded, install your pipes and then cover the pipes with a ply top level with the screed.
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daniely87
thanks again! so if they are not ducted (except through walls), the floor would need digging up? is there an online regulations pdf anywhere?
The secondary return just returns water from the furthest outlet and circulates it back to the cylinder, with reheated water going back to the furthest outlet and back again. You need to use a bronze pump for this, and the pump can be run on a timer for peak times.
With the the floor ducts, you can either buy channels like guttering, with ply lids or make your own from 3x2 with ply pinned to it and overhanging by an inch along its length. Lay the screed to the 3x2 and ply edge and once set, lift the ply, seperate it from the 3x2 and use the ply as a lid for the channel in the screed. I would not use tubular ducts if the pipe work is teed off out of it. Dont forget to draw a pipe layout on plan too, so you know which floor tiles to break up
and pressure test the pipe work before final covering.
With the the floor ducts, you can either buy channels like guttering, with ply lids or make your own from 3x2 with ply pinned to it and overhanging by an inch along its length. Lay the screed to the 3x2 and ply edge and once set, lift the ply, seperate it from the 3x2 and use the ply as a lid for the channel in the screed. I would not use tubular ducts if the pipe work is teed off out of it. Dont forget to draw a pipe layout on plan too, so you know which floor tiles to break up
and pressure test the pipe work before final covering.
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daniely87
ok, so say the secondary return starts 1 metre before the final mixer, and is hidden underground, is this ok?
2, just been reading about the ducting / sleeving....
Wyou do need to duct or sleeve hot and cold pipework, the reason being that the pipework must be accessible or removable for maintainace or repair."...i still cannot find that in ANY WRAS booklet....insulation = sleeving too though? they say it is for maintenance / repair, its plastic pipe, ZERO maintenance, ZERO joins, no need to repair / maintain, i cant chop it up as the floor on top is costing about £10,000 for the whole area and is done in one go, no joins etc......if i want to replace (highly unlikely) i will run down walls?....so what benefit is there of putting it in ducting? and insulation can be classed as sleeving? (according to insulation manufacturer...) whattttt confusion....through the walls it is ducted...
thanks again
2, just been reading about the ducting / sleeving....
Wyou do need to duct or sleeve hot and cold pipework, the reason being that the pipework must be accessible or removable for maintainace or repair."...i still cannot find that in ANY WRAS booklet....insulation = sleeving too though? they say it is for maintenance / repair, its plastic pipe, ZERO maintenance, ZERO joins, no need to repair / maintain, i cant chop it up as the floor on top is costing about £10,000 for the whole area and is done in one go, no joins etc......if i want to replace (highly unlikely) i will run down walls?....so what benefit is there of putting it in ducting? and insulation can be classed as sleeving? (according to insulation manufacturer...) whattttt confusion....through the walls it is ducted...
thanks again
A ducted pipe allows for movement of that pipe by either expansion, contraction, vibration, pressure or hammer effects. It is not only so you can pull it out for replacing. It also protects the pipe against contamination, stress and heat loss through the cold slab of the floor, along with protection from the stresses in the structure of the floor screed/slab, such as shrinkage, cracking, movement, frost.
If i was laying a pipe under £10,000 worth of floor covering, id want to get it right.
If in any doubt, refer to British Standards, Building Regulations, Water Regulations and even ring your local building control, if the work is notifiable. It would be a shame to receive an enforcement notice after the floor was laid.
Also a water fitting, includes pipe.
You might find in G3 it says pipe work should be installed in such a way as to minimise the transfer time between the storage vessel and outlets.
Keep your runs as short and direct as you can and secondary returns should be insulated, otherwise you will be returning cooler water back to the cylinder, to blend with the heated water, especially if its not lagged in a screed.
If i was laying a pipe under £10,000 worth of floor covering, id want to get it right.
If in any doubt, refer to British Standards, Building Regulations, Water Regulations and even ring your local building control, if the work is notifiable. It would be a shame to receive an enforcement notice after the floor was laid.
Also a water fitting, includes pipe.
You might find in G3 it says pipe work should be installed in such a way as to minimise the transfer time between the storage vessel and outlets.
Keep your runs as short and direct as you can and secondary returns should be insulated, otherwise you will be returning cooler water back to the cylinder, to blend with the heated water, especially if its not lagged in a screed.
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daniely87
erm, its in already, its sleeved in insulation....thick insulation, erm and its laid on the oversite, but has insulation hollowed out for it, so there is plenty of movement for it to adjust.........any way this may be allowed? or do i have to redo and bring down walls?
Theres probably more risk of the floor being weak with all the sponge and insulation under it
Water regs 2.7, which you have and BS8000 Part 15, which you may not have.
Hope that helps.
Ive just googled BS8000 for you, to see if it was online and this was on Speedfits website...
Im guessing you are using plastic pipe.
Concrete And Masonry Speedfit pipe and fittings can be laid in concrete and masonry providing they are installed in conduit pipe with access boxes for the fittings. This is to enable the pipe to expand and provide accessibility for both pipe and fittings. As stated in Water Regulation Scheme 2.7 and BS 8000 : Part 15, fittings and pipe should be removable for possible replacement. Insulation is also recommended to protect against heat loss and the effects of frost.
Im guessing you are using plastic pipe.
Concrete And Masonry Speedfit pipe and fittings can be laid in concrete and masonry providing they are installed in conduit pipe with access boxes for the fittings. This is to enable the pipe to expand and provide accessibility for both pipe and fittings. As stated in Water Regulation Scheme 2.7 and BS 8000 : Part 15, fittings and pipe should be removable for possible replacement. Insulation is also recommended to protect against heat loss and the effects of frost.
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daniely87
wow, just wow...haha, thanks, its Rehau plastic pipe with compresssion sleeve joints, so according to that, there should be an access point to every T'piece too?
back to the dead legs / showers, 5 showers together, if 1 mixer serves them all, from the mixer to each shower there is a large dead leg...is this acceptable? thank you sooo much everyone!
back to the dead legs / showers, 5 showers together, if 1 mixer serves them all, from the mixer to each shower there is a large dead leg...is this acceptable? thank you sooo much everyone!
Yes.
And as Picasso has previously said, Yes, it is acceptable.
A dead leg would be more termed if the pipe was a dead pipe, with no down stream outlet and the no flow. The water could then stagnate and as fresh water flowed passed the tee connection, would pick up bacteria and be contaminated.
If it was not a secondary return, just to go from a cylinder to an outlet would be a dead leg, from what you are thinking, but its not. From the mixer to the shower....? Thats the supply pipe, not a dead leg.
Cheers
Mark
And as Picasso has previously said, Yes, it is acceptable.
A dead leg would be more termed if the pipe was a dead pipe, with no down stream outlet and the no flow. The water could then stagnate and as fresh water flowed passed the tee connection, would pick up bacteria and be contaminated.
If it was not a secondary return, just to go from a cylinder to an outlet would be a dead leg, from what you are thinking, but its not. From the mixer to the shower....? Thats the supply pipe, not a dead leg.
Cheers
Mark
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