230V Downlighters in bathroom

[Reg_Prescott]

Hi all, I have a question regarding light fittings in bathrooms. I need some lighting over a shower. I have looked at drawings detailing the zones and I reckon they will be in zone 1.

I have found some nice downlighters that are suitable for zone 1 and have an IP rating of 65. They are 230V, double insulated.

My question is, can these lights be fitted to the existing upstairs lighting cct in the bathroom, or do they need their own cct with RCD etc?

I will not be doing the work myself, but I am buying all the bathroom stuff and get a good discount on these light fittings. I would like to know how much work is required for the electrician. I was hoping they would be a straight swap (the shower is being moved and will be under existing lights)

I hope this make sense...

Cheers,

Mark

 

[ericmark]

701.411.3.3 Additional protection by RCDs
Additional protection shall be provided for all circuits of the location, by the use of one or more RCDs having the characteristics specified in Regulation 415.1.1.

Sorry no way to avoid using an RCD on a new circuit.

It needs to be at least IPX4 for zone 1 & 2

Luminaires are permitted in zone 1 & 2 but it must be recommended for use in those areas by manufacturer.

Zone 1 & 2 finish 2.25 m above the finished floor level unless shower head is higher.

Note:- finished floor level not the bottom of shower tray or bath my room is 2.4 meters high so light is not in any zone.

Odd although out of zones the distance for a socket is 3 m from zone 1 not really designed so you can fit sockets in bathrooms but so where a shower is fitted to bedroom you can have sockets 3 m away as now no special rules for bedroom with shower in.

 

[Reg_Prescott]

Wow, thanks for the swift reply

If the lights where 12V versions, with the transformer in the loft would I still need a separate cct?

A new cct wouldn't be too difficult as the CU is in the garage, which is below the bathroom. I just want to keep the work (read expense to a minimum.

Thanks,

Mark

 

[ColJack]

you don't need to install a new cct, you just need to RCD protect the existing one..

this can be done by either swapping the MCB for an RCBO, moving the lighting breaker to the RCD protected side of a split load board, or by installing an RCDFCU somewhere in the cct before the bathroom ( ie on the wall outside the bathroom )

 

[ericmark]

I will assume by CCT you mean circuit not cold cathode tube and as already stated you would not need a new circuit.
However using 12V SELV (separated extra low voltage) lighting is one way to get around the problem of RCD on lighting although there is nothing in the regulations that say an RCD is not required will SELV obvious that would have to be the case.
But you can’t use CCT (cold cathode tube) lamps with 12v and LED (light emitting diodes) are as yet not good enough. With the forthcoming demise of the tungsten lamp 2012 then ones thoughts must go to what can be used once the quartz halogen lamp goes and with that in mind I would prefer to use 230v (Low voltage) lighting.
Also with number of posts we see about failure of inverters although 12v may seem a good idea in theory it seems it does not work out that way in practice.
I know my old transformer has worked for years but it does not have the advantage of the new inverters in keeping the voltage stable.

 

[Reg_Prescott]

you don't need to install a new cct, you just need to RCD protect the existing one..

this can be done by either swapping the MCB for an RCBO, moving the lighting breaker to the RCD protected side of a split load board, or by installing an RCDFCU somewhere in the cct before the bathroom ( ie on the wall outside the bathroom )

Thanks, that is very helpful info!

I will assume by CCT you mean circuit

Yep, sorry I use this all the at work (PCB designer), force of habit!

Thanks all!

 

[ericmark]

We all use letters instead of words most of the time without a problem but then we find we are talking at cross purposes.
I did it when talking to a narrow boat owner and I referred to RCD which to me was residual circuit breaker but to them was recreational craft directive.

I hope it is all sorted now for you. All best Eric

 

[ban-all-sheds]

My question is, can these lights be fitted to the existing upstairs lighting cct in the bathroom, or do they need their own cct with RCD etc?

Sorry no way to avoid using an RCD on a new circuit

you don't need to install a new cct, you just need to RCD protect the existing one..

I don't believe that you do.

But -

I will not be doing the work myself

so it's irrelevant what any of us think about that issue - it's his electrician who'll be deciding what he thinks he has to do...

 

[Reg_Prescott]

The whole bathroom is being refitted, and I will be getting an electrician in. It's just I want to keep the work electrical work to a minimum. I was hoping for a straight swap for the light fittings rather than new circuits. Of course I want the job to meet the regs, I wanted to know if 12V versions would mean less work.

It would be nice to be able to use the 230V versions (because my wife choose 'em!)

Cheers,

Mark.

 

[ericmark]

The wording of Part P and of 17th Edition do not always coincide. For Part P a circuit is everything which comes from a Fuse/MCB/RCBO in the consumer unit. And branches from existing wiring are not considered as new circuits.

However in the 17th Edition when a FCU is used that becomes a new circuit.

There is nothing that says we must upgrade anything which was compliant to a previous edition of the regulations but anything we add must comply. There has been in the trade magazine wiring matters an article on this which has caused much discussion as to when and what must be upgraded.

I would consider in this case since all the electrics in the bathroom are being renewed it is likely the registered electrician when he comes to do the work will want to comply with BS7671:2008. However it is his call.

There are some omissions in my mind in the BS7671:2008 as to the protection required for SELV circuits. These can't be protected by earths or RCD's and as a result should in my mind be exempt from some of the rules concerning cables buried in walls and other new regulations asking for RCD protection. But it does not say they are exempt and one can't know what some other electrician will want to do in respect to these.

If I was giving advice to someone who is doing some DIY I would say you do not require any special protection for SELV circuits. But if someone said my electrician says the cables have to be run in steel conduit I could not hand on heart say he was wrong. Although I would think he was going OTT.

So only sure way to know what is required is to ask the electrician who is doing the job. The regulations are after all only a recommendation and not law although they can be used in a court of law.