400kW charger - how many of these on a typical local network ?

[Harry Bloomfield]

For reliable power from renewables you really need to build a super grid, it will be windy or sunny somewhere in the world. Be quite a big undertaking mind.

..and if there were to be a fall out?

 

[reds42]

..and if there were to be a fall out?

Areas with surplus energy would supply ones with a shortfall, then as weather conditions change the situation would be reversed between them. It would be a mutualy benificial arangement, if you get cut off from someones supply, they loose your supply to them.

With a great many countries interconected it would have to be quite an epic fallout with multiple countries to pose problems, and would be self defeating excercise for all sides.

 

[SimonH2]

If people had a pipe delivering petrol or diseasel to their homes so they could top their tank up every night how many would need to refill elsewhere, and how often?

Well I can have a stab at that, having been in an analogous situation. There's an old joke about Rover V8 powered Land Rovers - they'll pass anything but a petrol station One answer to the cost of feeding such a beast is to run them on propane, a.k.a. LPG. When I first converted my old Disco, LPG was available locally but it was rather pricey - and I could buy 47kg cylinders and fill up for considerably less, even after paying fuel duty etc. So I was mostly filling at home, and that carried on when the Disco got replaced with the 110.
Running a thirsty beast on LPG had a lot of similarities with the discussion of EVs. Range is limited (by gas tank capacity) and filling points aren't anywhere near as ubiquitous as for petrol/diesel. I used to subscribe to an outfit that provided maps of LPG stations, and later provided a file to load into the GPS.
Familiar routes were/are fairly easy - you get to know where the filling stations are and when they are open. But other trips involve a bit of forward planning. As an example, when my mate would be doing rallies in Wales, getting gas at the weekend was often a problem and we usually took our own. In many cases the map would show plenty of places to fill up, but they wouldn't be closed at the weekend

But in answer to the question. For my daily commute I could fill at home. For some trips I could manage but range anxiety could kick in - especially when the little used petrol system started playing up and removing that backup option
Longer trips required either taking our own gas bottles (can't do that with a pure EV), or careful planning to use whatever infrastructure was available. As to what proportion of usage anyone could do from "home filling", that will vary considerably between users. Back then, I'd guess that perhaps 3/4 of my use could be home fill - these days probably a bit more, but I would absolutely need public facilities.

...coincidentally a period where people will be more inclined to use their car instead of walking/cycling/waiting for a bus?

Not only that, but in winter the lecky requirements will be somewhat higher. Lights, heater, window demisting, will all take their toll and significantly reduce range/increase charging requirements. At the same time, this is the time of year when lecky demand is highest.

It's almost always blowing somewhere, day and night.

So wind can "almost always" keep the lights on But actually "almost always" is rather over-stating things a bit - there are quite significant periods when there's insignificant wind across wide areas. I can't remember where I read it now (probably one of the IET journals), but someone did a study and correlated data across Europe and showed significant correlation between calm spells in northern and sourthern Europe - in effect, don't assume that when the wind isn't blowing here, that we can import extra from Europe as they may be in calm as well.
Going back a few more years, I recall reading in one of the IEE journals where someone had studied weather records from a cold and calm spell. For at least 10 days, there was a static high pressure zone over most of Europe and Scandinavia - with a result that there would be little wind power generated across the continent for a significant period. You can absolutely forget about "grid scale storage covering that sort of shortfall.

My question stands - what do we do when there is no wind and no solar?

This is where the "non-engineers" will do some hand-waving and utter things like "always blowing somewhere" and "just need some storage". The reality as as many of us here understand - you either turn off the lights (the primary function of "smart" meters), or you fire up some backup generation. Of course, what the supporters of wind casually ignore when comparing the headline costs of wind and nuclear is that (in general) nuclear doesn't need nearly 100% of "something else" as well. The cost of keeping all those old coal and gas plants available (but not being used very often) is a hidden cost that needs adding to the cost of those intermittent generators.

We could also invest in a solar scheme in one of the sunniest parts of the world. Saharan Africa, perhaps.

And use the generated lecky to make methanol to replace petrol/diesel. We already have the infrastructure in place to store/transport/retail that

Just spoted this article on BBC news, somewhat relevant to current debate. Particularly the question of if we have enough electricity.

And repeats the usual misdirection that we have a lot (and growing) of low/zero carbon lecky now. That's irrelevant because until we get to the point of having such low/zero carbon generating capacity spare, then adding load to the grid will open the taps on a fossil fuelled power station somewhere. So until we do get to that state, then lecky cars are absolutely not low/zero carbon.

With a great many countries interconected it would have to be quite an epic fallout with multiple countries to pose problems, and would be self defeating excercise for all sides.

Of course, we've absolutely no experience in the last century or two of fallings out between countries - and things look oh so stable right now as well It probably wouldn't take too much of a falling out to destabilise the network - and it could even be a tactic of war to actively do that. Such a network would certainly be a strategic target.

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

Well I can have a stab at that, having been in an analogous situation

Thanks Simon, you have hit the nail firmly on the head with that post. You have obviously put time in researching it.

 

[reds42]

Of course, we've absolutely no experience in the last century or two of fallings out between countries - and things look oh so stable right now as well It probably wouldn't take too much of a falling out to destabilise the network - and it could even be a tactic of war to actively do that. Such a network would certainly be a strategic target.

We already are energy dependant on other countries, the UK imports gas and oil from other parts of the world. This is already a strategic target that's currently being attacked, look at the carrying on with the tankers around Iran... And then there's the power Russia has over European gas supply's...

I'd quite like us to be more energy independent. That stuff they keep pulling out the sea off Scotland is limited in supply, we don't have enough already, and will run out. Yes we could start fracking everywhere for gas but then there's only so much of that.

Things have to change, it would be better to look at the long game and start adapting now rather than burying our heads in the sand thinking we can carry on the same way forever. Like I said earlier I'm happy for some more nuclear reactors to be built, but combined with other generation for a diversified supply (never good to have your eggs all in one basket). Its not going to be cheap but we need to wean ourselves off oil/gas sooner rather than later, and thinking otherwise would be a mistake.

Oh and yes, I have an engineering degree so no hand waving here thankfuly.

 

[SimonH2]

Like I said earlier I'm happy for some more nuclear reactors to be built, but combined with other generation for a diversified supply (never good to have your eggs all in one basket). Its not going to be cheap ...

I think we are pretty much in agreement. I think most people know that I'm pro nuclear (as part of a sensible mix) - been thrown off a forum for not toeing the "all we need are a few more windmills" line
Trouble with nuclear as we're doing it at the moment is that we insist on building huge plants that necessarily end up costing more than any individual business can afford to invest without state support in one form or another. There's a fair bit of work being done on small modular reactors which could change the game completely - but I can imagine a fair bit of opposition to "we're going to put this small reactor on the industrial estate in your town" announcements

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Back then, I'd guess that perhaps 3/4 of my use could be home fill - these days probably a bit more, but I would absolutely need public facilities.

Absolutely will we need public facilities, and probably as many as we have now, or more if we don't get EV ranges to increase. The point I was trying to get at is that we won't need them to be the electric energy equivalent of petrol/diseasel filling stations as the numbers of people using them will fall. Your experience says they'll fall by 75%. No matter how unrepresentative you are, your experience illustrates the point.

And you can get range anxiety anyway - driving over Hardknott Pass last week and watching the promised range of my car start to fall rapidly (I had nowhere near a full tank) I started to wonder WTH the nearest petrol station was...

 

[reds42]

There's a fair bit of work being done on small modular reactors which could change the game completely

There's some rather impressive small reactors that we make... off skulking around under the oceans... wouldn't be surprised if there was one in the gulf region...

Privatisation of the electricity industry really won't have helped the with the difficulty of getting big plant built, as you say to many small players without the funding.
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Hardknott Pass

My area of the world, quite rural yet I could easily get by commuting and getting around in something like the Hyundai Kona Electric/Kia E-Niro (they are basicly the same car) that have 300 mile ranges (yes less in less than perfect weather conditions but still quite adequate). Electric car technology has improved and the prices are starting to fall such that they are becoming feasible to use - just need to get cracking with improving the grid supply.

 

[bernardgreen]

but I can imagine a fair bit of opposition to "we're going to put this small reactor on the industrial estate in your town" announcements

How about a small nuclear generator in the car to trickle charge the battery 24 hours a day all year long.

When Beta lights were fitted in the emergency telephones along UK motorways there was some "reaction" from the anti nuclear fractions about nuclear power being used in public accessible equipment.

( Beta lights use tritium gas as HERE ( the betlight.nl website is reported as mis-configured )

 

[ban-all-sheds]

My car has a "300 mile range". More when cruising sensibly on a free-flowing motorway, less when in urban traffic or when hoofing it around ( ).

And a lot less when dragging itself up roads like that - the problem last week was that I'd got about 100-120 miles of realistic range in the tank, and that dropped into the 40's in places as I drove the pass. West to East, if that makes a difference.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

How about a small nuclear generator in the car to trickle charge the battery 24 hours a day all year long.

That would make scrambling around in breakers' yards more "interesting".

 

[reds42]

My car has a "300 mile range". More when cruising sensibly on a free-flowing motorway, less when in urban traffic or when hoofing it around ( ).

And a lot less when dragging itself up roads like that - the problem last week was that I'd got about 100-120 miles of realistic range in the tank, and that dropped into the 40's in places as I drove the pass. West to East, if that makes a difference.

My car fuel economy is utterly ruined by having to go up and down hills all the time. Much more fuel is needed to get up the hills (to little in the tank and it could slosh away from the pickup on really steep bits...), then all that energy is wasted heating up the brakes going down the other side.

Intrestingly with an electric car you would still use lots more energy climbing the hills, but with the regenerative breaking going down the other side you would recoup most of that extra expended energy back into the battery rather than wasting it as heat. I would imagine it likely an electric car would be even more efficient than a petrol/diesel in hilly conditions.