Been there.
6 megawatt battery backup system?
- Thread starter speedy130
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The hazards of a burning wind turbine ( as mentioned in that report ) are significant. They cannot be extinquished and much of the materials that burn create toxic fumes and debris which falls onto the surrounding area and then requires expensive clean up. Burning debris has ignited fires in buildings close to the burning turbine.
Ice throw is the other significant danger to people and buildings within 100 metres of the turbine. There are un-confirmed reports of ice being thrown over 200 metres. Roofs damaged with no apparent cause, the ice having melted there was no evidence to prove it was ice from the turbine blade.
Ice throw is the other significant danger to people and buildings within 100 metres of the turbine. There are un-confirmed reports of ice being thrown over 200 metres. Roofs damaged with no apparent cause, the ice having melted there was no evidence to prove it was ice from the turbine blade.
The turbines would be better placed on site so they are able to make use of the 'free' electricity on their site while still being paid to generate it.
If they placed their turbines out of town, they would still generate power, they would recieve their monies per kwh generated, and would sell the electricity to the grid. They would still have a huge electricity bill to pay for their manufacturing site though.
With the turbines on site there electricity bill would be wiped out, and this could easily amount to hundreds of thousands of pounds per month.
If they placed their turbines out of town, they would still generate power, they would recieve their monies per kwh generated, and would sell the electricity to the grid. They would still have a huge electricity bill to pay for their manufacturing site though.
With the turbines on site there electricity bill would be wiped out, and this could easily amount to hundreds of thousands of pounds per month.
True only if they and the workforce are prepared to stop work on days when there is no wind and also on days when excessive wind means the turbines have to be shut down to prevent over speeding.
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Interesting.
I hadn't realised that electricity couldn't be transported from out of town to a site within it.
Strikes me that the OP has the right idea, these are some sort of PR greenwash. There's no way they'll be running off grid - although they may well claim that to keep up appearances.
6MW is a considerable size of UPS, and it'll need to run for between 1 and 2 weeks for them to go off grid such is the way the wind can inconveniently decide not to blow. So think about the numbers ericmark came up with, and multiply by 24 hours in a day, and by however many days backup required.
On the other hand, if the turbines are 6MW, then they will only need a 6MW charger, the inverter section (and attached loads) can't be more than about 1.5MW. The typical load factor of a windmill is only about 25% (the supporters claim 33%, IIRC I've read 23% as an actual measured value from somewhere). So they'll only average 1.5MW over a year, and will need to hope for significant periods above that to charge their batteries.
Still, the batteries required would be absolutely huge and they really really really will not be paying for those (a grid supply would be a fraction of the cost). Or, they might be planning a smaller battery and a diesel generator - very green
Nah, they'll be planning on grid connecting and the windmills are greenwash (and ROC generators).
Incidentally, the biggest UPS I've read about was 250MW - and it was a genuine UPS (electronics, batteries etc). It was protecting a lead processing plant somewhere in the USA and they worked out that it was worth it to avoid releasing lead dust into the environment in the event of an uncontrolled shutdown. According to the article I read this in, after a while the worked out that they had excess battery capacity and started using some of it for peak demand lopping - leading to s significant cut in their demand charges.
6MW is a considerable size of UPS, and it'll need to run for between 1 and 2 weeks for them to go off grid such is the way the wind can inconveniently decide not to blow. So think about the numbers ericmark came up with, and multiply by 24 hours in a day, and by however many days backup required.
On the other hand, if the turbines are 6MW, then they will only need a 6MW charger, the inverter section (and attached loads) can't be more than about 1.5MW. The typical load factor of a windmill is only about 25% (the supporters claim 33%, IIRC I've read 23% as an actual measured value from somewhere). So they'll only average 1.5MW over a year, and will need to hope for significant periods above that to charge their batteries.
Still, the batteries required would be absolutely huge and they really really really will not be paying for those (a grid supply would be a fraction of the cost). Or, they might be planning a smaller battery and a diesel generator - very green
Nah, they'll be planning on grid connecting and the windmills are greenwash (and ROC generators).Incidentally, the biggest UPS I've read about was 250MW - and it was a genuine UPS (electronics, batteries etc). It was protecting a lead processing plant somewhere in the USA and they worked out that it was worth it to avoid releasing lead dust into the environment in the event of an uncontrolled shutdown. According to the article I read this in, after a while the worked out that they had excess battery capacity and started using some of it for peak demand lopping - leading to s significant cut in their demand charges.
BAS - Even you can surely understand the logistics that would be involved in transporting your own electricity from out of town back to your site? It would be inhibitly expensive to achieve, especially "across town".
Bernard - Large companies do have to foot some staggering energy bills, and as they compete in an unstable market place, reducing overheads is always something that is going to be looked at. The wind may not blow all the time, and sometimes may blow too hard, but surely any reduction in the energy bill is a good thing? No one is saying they want to wipe it out completely, but reducing it is only going to benefit them.
Thanks for your further input.
We wrote to Siemens (still waiting for a reply) & someone at the "national grid". They didn't know of any current battery technology that would enable them to operate "off grid" for any useful length of time, but they did point us to this recent case in Shetland...
http://www.shetlandtimes.co.uk/2011...ck-battery-fire-forces-sse-to-halt-connection
... never even been switched on yet
The truth is they could easily relocate their turbines out of town, out of harm's way, away from local schools & housing and connect them to the grid to collect the feed-in tariff like other installations. But then nobody would SEE what a great "green" company they are
We wrote to Siemens (still waiting for a reply) & someone at the "national grid". They didn't know of any current battery technology that would enable them to operate "off grid" for any useful length of time, but they did point us to this recent case in Shetland...
http://www.shetlandtimes.co.uk/2011...ck-battery-fire-forces-sse-to-halt-connection
... never even been switched on yet
The truth is they could easily relocate their turbines out of town, out of harm's way, away from local schools & housing and connect them to the grid to collect the feed-in tariff like other installations. But then nobody would SEE what a great "green" company they are
If a massive oil field was found 2km off the coast to where you live, would you argue that it was not exploited? considering that your economy is vastly supported by the hydrocarbon industry.
Comparing the costs of installing and maintaining a turbine against the savings in electricity bills may show a larger expenditure than saving. Many large firms have a maximum permissible demand and are charged for that no matter how much they actually use. Anything above that is charged at a very high rate. Control rooms shed load to keep the black actual load indicator from overtaking the red maximum limit. Feeding wind generated power into the firm will reduce the actual load but may not reduce the actual bill. It would allow the firm to go over maximum without being charged for the excess. It would need to be alert to shed load as soon as the output from the generator starts to fall and the actual load on the grid gets close to the maximum.
A firm I have connections with in Germany was one of the first to have wind generators and their experience is that providing non essential support services such as hot water and storage heating units is the least expensive way of using wind generated electrical power. Expense includes the costs, obvious and hidden, of the inconvenience of having had to match activity in the factory to available power.
Usual sloppy reporting, "1 MW" battery ? I assume they mean 1 MWHr
So £3.3M for 1MWHr, and it will only allow an extra 400kW to be connected (at the moment).
Lets see, 1.5MW for 10 days is 360MWHr, and at the cost/MWHr, that would be a £1,188M battery your local plant is proposing if what they appear to be saying is anything close to honest. I think not !
PreciselyBut then nobody would SEE what a great "green" company they are
I was at a meeting over a proposed wiond farm. One of the "militant" greens was insistant that green was the only way to generate power and stated that she was more than glad to pay extra for her electricity which came from a "green" source. Little miss "green shoes" with a big mouth. She was challenged with the question " If there is no wind will you turn off all your electrical equipment to prevent you using non green electricity ? " She wouldn't answer that and for the rest of the meeting was a lot less mouthy.
It's a small coastal town with a population of @10,000 and this issue has really split the community. The turbines would be directly opposite (within 350m) of an ancient & protected fishing village.
They the largest local employer and many people, while they may not like it, are resigned that this has to happen to safeguard jobs etc. There is another (younger) element who are actively supporting their plans as the progressive "green" future. The majority are either silent, or just don't care.
It's all based on the fact that they claim the turbines HAVE to be located within their plant & they will be "off grid" (with battery backup). I think we have enough info to say this is simply not true.
It is PR on a sickening scale & I find it staggering that this company is prepared to ruin a historic skyline (turbines would be 130m high, 3 times taller than any existing feature) and even risk the safety of their employees and local residents, rather than simply relocate the turbines to somewhere more suitable, such as an abandoned air field on the outskirts of town.
Once people realise what is going on, that they are being lied to, and there is no reason the turbines can't be relocated, then I think they'll have a real fight on their hands.
Maybe they could stick their turbines out of town, and erect a statue in the square, saying what a great, green company they are. Or fly a big green blimp at 130m.
Anyway - rant over & thanks again to all for your insight & opinions.
They the largest local employer and many people, while they may not like it, are resigned that this has to happen to safeguard jobs etc. There is another (younger) element who are actively supporting their plans as the progressive "green" future. The majority are either silent, or just don't care.
It's all based on the fact that they claim the turbines HAVE to be located within their plant & they will be "off grid" (with battery backup). I think we have enough info to say this is simply not true.
It is PR on a sickening scale & I find it staggering that this company is prepared to ruin a historic skyline (turbines would be 130m high, 3 times taller than any existing feature) and even risk the safety of their employees and local residents, rather than simply relocate the turbines to somewhere more suitable, such as an abandoned air field on the outskirts of town.
Once people realise what is going on, that they are being lied to, and there is no reason the turbines can't be relocated, then I think they'll have a real fight on their hands.
Maybe they could stick their turbines out of town, and erect a statue in the square, saying what a great, green company they are. Or fly a big green blimp at 130m.
Anyway - rant over & thanks again to all for your insight & opinions.
Given what you know now, perhaps you can turn up at the next public meeting and ask "difficult" questions. Things like :
What is the average, and minimum (with all non-essentials turned off), load for the factory ?
Allowing for the low load factor of wind turbines, is the within the output capability of the turbines (as opposed to the headline rating) ?
What size battery do they plan to be installing, and what endurance will that give them when the wind stops for long periods ?
<assuming battery is inadequate, which it will be unless their load if minimal>
During low/nil wind periods, will they be shutting down the factory, going on-grid, or running up diesel generators ?
What is the danger area (fallout radius) for ice shed from the turbine blades ?
What is the danger area (fallout radius) for turbine parts should one fail catastrophically ? If facilities allow, you can show people videos off the net of turbines burning and shedding burning bits and acrid (toxic) smoke.
It will need some courage to stand up and do this, but I think you'll find it suddenly gets very uncomfortable for the PR people who won't have a clue - they will either answer a different question (as politicians do), lie (in which case you'll be able to call them on it), or admit something that won't help their cause.
What is the average, and minimum (with all non-essentials turned off), load for the factory ?
Allowing for the low load factor of wind turbines, is the within the output capability of the turbines (as opposed to the headline rating) ?
What size battery do they plan to be installing, and what endurance will that give them when the wind stops for long periods ?
<assuming battery is inadequate, which it will be unless their load if minimal>
During low/nil wind periods, will they be shutting down the factory, going on-grid, or running up diesel generators ?
What is the danger area (fallout radius) for ice shed from the turbine blades ?
What is the danger area (fallout radius) for turbine parts should one fail catastrophically ? If facilities allow, you can show people videos off the net of turbines burning and shedding burning bits and acrid (toxic) smoke.
It will need some courage to stand up and do this, but I think you'll find it suddenly gets very uncomfortable for the PR people who won't have a clue - they will either answer a different question (as politicians do), lie (in which case you'll be able to call them on it), or admit something that won't help their cause.
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