Add 2nd CU?

Sure - that was also part of our other discussion.

I was thinking of the OP, rather than your specific issues of failure or regular power outages. A power loss alarm is immediate, he could if he so wanted supplement that alarm by a temperature alarm to warn of his freezer failure/ or open door, as I have done.
 
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I was thinking of the OP, rather than your specific issues of failure or regular power outages. A power loss alarm is immediate, he could if he so wanted supplement that alarm by a temperature alarm to warn of his freezer failure/ or open door, as I have done.
Yes, there is something to be said for having both - as you imply, if there is a freezer problem due to power failure (of just that circuit), then a power failure alarm will give one an earlier indication of the problem than will a temperature alarm.

Anyway, getting back to my initial comment (in this thread), I would still advise against literally having a freezer circuit "... with nothing else on it", since I do feel that it is beneficial to have 'something else' on the circuit, even if that 'something else' is only a power failure alarm.

Kind Regards, John
 
The aim is to ensure lights have no more than 3% volt drop, and sockets 5% volt drop, the rules are rather vague however, but normally we assume 20 amp drawn centre of ring and 12 amp even spread so we work on 26 amp to work out volt drop on a ring final, which gives us 106 meters maximum of cable. The problem with a radial circuit is still taking 20 amp at furthest point means you need three radials to replace one ring final, which is why we still use ring finals, as they work out a lot cheaper, specially when using RCBO protection.

We should plan an install, not simply do it that way as we always do it that way, and we can have three signatures on the installation certificate one for planning, one for installing, and one for inspection and testing, however this is rare with domestic installs, in the main one signature for all.

I have never been a scheme member, so I don't know if they can use the multi-signature installation certificate? In England the Part P allows use of third party inspectors instead of using the LABC, in Wales not permitted. So to use a three signature form in Wales it would have to be done using the LABC inspectors.

The LABC inspector is responsible for site safety, so he is free to say who can do what and when, this includes who can sign the installation certificate, before the Part P was watered down in England my son did work in Liverpool, Cheshire, and Flintshire, and each county inspectors were different, Liverpool was easiest with Flintshire being a real problem, so to say what you can do is pointless as it depends on what your LABC inspector is like.

Flintshire wanted to see the test equipment and calibration certificate and our qualifications, in essence he did not want us to DIY electrics. How much down to county policy and how much down to inspector I don't know.

As to trying to read any law, often there are grey areas, which are plugged with case law, so reading the Part P English law you could get a consumer unit installed with 16 RCBO's in it and 16 sockets below it, then extend and modify each one of those circuits as you want, that may be to letter of the law, but not the spirit of the law. If your going to do tricks like that to get around the Part P law, it will not protect you from other laws like electricity at work act, every home at some point has some one doing work there, even if just the milk man or postman walking to the door.

Mothers house had two consumer units, a 45 amp MCB in main one fed the kitchen one, with SWA around outside of the house, it was done before the re-wire as kitchen needed to be altered and the rubber cable used in rest of house meant that it could not be RCD protected, but the rules required RCD protection for new sockets, so it was a method of getting around the rules. Latter when rewired the kitchen consumer unit was retained.

But we are not signing the installation certificate as the person who designed the system, and this is the stumbling block, we can debate until the cows come home, but only person who can say yes or no is the LABC inspector, and if you need to ask on a forum, then likely he will not permit you to do the wiring. Or if he does, he can make it very expensive.

It seems the LABC can use third party inspectors, which you need to pay for, so in Wales first £2000 worth of work costs £100 plus vat, but on top of that a third part inspector can charge £40 per visit, there is no fixed fee, so 10 visits, and that's £500 which starts to get to point where cheaper not to DIY.

I misplaced the paperwork for mothers house, so applied for replacements, I was told it would take 4 months, and would cost what ever time the council worker spent finding it. Open cheque it seems. Lucky I then found the originals, but so much for traceable records, maybe the coroner can get the records, should some one die due to what you have done, but one would have thought the lawyers when buying or selling a house would get copies from the LABC so you can't fiddle them, but it seems that is not the case.

The completion certificate was very vague, there was really nothing to link it to the installation certificate, which I had completed, so I could have produced another installation certificate with same date which included much more work to the original, so it is like asking to see the text message from NHS saying you have passed the Colvid 19 rapid antigen test, you told the NHS you passed, it is done on trust, so no point in showing text message your word should be enough.

So legal you must have a completion or compliance certificate, but no legal requirement for the installation certificate, regulations are not a legal requirement, so once you have a completion or compliance certificate it would be hard to show what was really covered, mothers house had three completion or compliance certificates some of the work was covered by two certificates, this house I was given the certificate on buying the house, and only found out latter it only covered a small part of the house.

So in real terms with owner occupied house it would need some one to be seriously injured or killed before anyone looks at paperwork, rented houses very different, and where social services visit the house, maybe they would check, however when the Flintshire social services did work in mothers house, in spite of trying to get copies, we never got any paperwork for the work done, in Wales that was a new circuit to power door bell that included a 13 amp socket which was not RCD protected and fitted after the time when RCD protection was required. Since then whole house was rewired, but if the council don't follow the rules, seems unlikely they are going to take anyone to court for doing the same as they do.
 
The aim is to ensure lights have no more than 3% volt drop, and sockets 5% volt drop, the rules are rather vague ....
As you know, there are no 'rules' ('vague' or otherwise), other than a requirement that the voltage supplied should not be so low as to 'impair the safe functioning' of the load - and I don't think anyone has been able to think of any situation in which under-voltage could result in impairment of 'safe functioning'. The figures you quote are guidelines which, in reality, are (in my opinion) essentially irrelevant - and, in any event, only relate to situations of extreme circuit loading which would very rarely be encountered.

It is also a bit daft to even think (let alone have 'rules' relating to) voltage drops in final circuits when there is so much potential variation in supply voltage. If the supply voltage were 253V, then the guideline figure would mean that it was 'not acceptable' for the voltage reaching a socket to fall below 240.35V, yet it would be acceptable' to have a supply voltage of 216.2V with the voltage at sockets falling to which fell to 205.39V on full load.

However, I'm not sure what any of this, or what you go on to say in your post, has got to do with the matter under discussion.

Kind Regards, John
 
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I think the limit is 207 to 253 volts, any EV charging point or solar panel has to be designed to auto disconnect outside that range.

Many places I have worked had main distribution units feeding small units and there is no reason not to use the system with domestic premises, however the standard consumer unit is limited to 125 amp, well really 100 amp, but over 125 amp not classed as a consumer unit.

I remember wiring up an old mill which had been converted into a home, it was really big, and we were not sure if 100 amp would be enough, so we fitted three consumer units and wired back to a three phase isolator with three 100 amp fuses, but all three where supplied from a single phase supply, we did it so if there was a problem we could ask for split or three phase in the future.

Six months latter we did a snag visit and it had never blown the DNO fuse so clearly we had no need to worry, this house has two electric showers, two ovens, 8 rings, as part of house was turned into granny flat, 14 RCBO's supply the circuits, all from a 60 amp fuse which has never ruptured while I have been here.

I use two cup boilers both 3 kW so we can get quick cup of coffee in the adverts, never had a problem. Both from same ring final although not same socket.

The only problem with two consumer units is one can think you have switched off all power in error, I did that here, not sure which MCB was for sockets so turned off whole CU, but one testing for dead it was not dead, and then found second distribution unit (fuse box) hidden in the ceiling.

Should be a single point of isolation, but since fuse box fed main house and consumer unit fed the flat under the house not sure if anything wrong with what was done?
 
It is also a bit daft to even think (let alone have 'rules' relating to) voltage drops in final circuits when there is so much potential variation in supply voltage. If the supply voltage were 253V, then the guideline figure would mean that it was 'not acceptable' for the voltage reaching a socket to fall below 240.35V, yet it would be acceptable' to have a supply voltage of 216.2V with the voltage at sockets falling to which fell to 205.39V on full load.

The other side of the coin, is that volts drop translates into waste heating in the cable.
 
The other side of the coin, is that volts drop translates into waste heating in the cable.
Indeed - but to what extent that constitutes true 'waste' will vary - in Winter, it will reduce to the need for other heating of the building.

The reality is, of course, that, in domestic installations, the loading on most circuits is, for the great majority of the time very much below the extreme 'fully loaded' assumption used by eric and others for their VD calculations - so those calculations are very 'consrvative' (pessimistic). Indeed, I would imagine that the vast majority of final circuits in domestic premises are never 'fully loaded'.

Kind Regards, John
 
I think the limit is 207 to 253 volts, any EV charging point or solar panel has to be designed to auto disconnect outside that range.
Well, as I said, given that the minimum permitted ('for appreciable periods of time') supply voltage is 216.2 V, so 5% drop in the final circuit would reduce that to 205.39 V at the farthest socket - not far from your 207 V.
... The only problem with two consumer units is one can think you have switched off all power in error, I did that here, not sure which MCB was for sockets so turned off whole CU, but one testing for dead it was not dead, and then found second distribution unit (fuse box) hidden in the ceiling. ... Should be a single point of isolation, but since fuse box fed main house and consumer unit fed the flat under the house not sure if anything wrong with what was done?
There's probably no 'totally correct' answer to that question, and the 'best' answer will depend upon circumstances....

... If the main house and flat had separate (different) occupancy (i.e. 'two dwellings'), then I doubt that many people would think it appropriate to have a 'single point of isolation' which killed the supply to both dwellings. However, if the house and flats are under 'common occupancy' (i.e. essentially a single dwelling) then, as you imply, the safest option would be to have a 'single point of isolation' for both areas.

The situation does not stop at just "two CUs". In my house, the supply is distributed to six CUs, each serving different areas. The distribution circuit to each of those CUs can be isolated close to the origin of the entire installation, but there is also an 'up-front' isolator which kills absolutely everything, should I ever need to do that.

Kind Regards, John
 
Think need to return to first question.
  • Is my plan to have 5 circuits to the kitchen overkill - is there a better way bearing in mind at the moment it is only the kitchen that will be rewired and it may stay that way for a while. Is a ring mandatory or can I use a radial nowadays?
  • No need for a ring final, and the appendix says any item which is not portable with a draw of over 2 kW should be on a dedicated supply, so washing machine, dish washer, tumble drier, oven, hob, should have their own dedicated supply, in the main that would be going OTT and having a dedicated supply to kitchen is good enough.
  • I assume I would also need to pull a good earth through for cross binding in the kitchen?
  • Since 2008 bonding is linked to use of RCD's so in the main you don't need cross bonding.
  • Can I add a second CU to power this side of the house and if so what cabling would I need to pull through to wire it up? Does the cable come from the first CU or through a separate isolator like my existing one does?
  • Yes you can have second CU, as to how supplied varies.
  • When it comes to wiring up the lights can you still wire these at a JB or do I now need to pull down two cables per light switch?
  • Assume you mean the ceiling rose which doubles as junction box, there are pros and cons both using switch back box and ceiling rose as a junction box, using three core and earth for drops gives best of both.
  • Is there an issue with having 2 CU's both which have an RCD circuit on them?
  • No with caravans and boats one 30 mA feeds another, but in a house using high integrity CU means you can use a non protected MCB to supply the next CU as long as the cable is suitable, SWA or Alitube or surface.
  • Is there anything I am missing?
Yes it is how to register your work with the LABC. To do that some one needs to inspect and test, and that can be done in a number of ways.

  1. You can get all the work done by a scheme member.
  2. You can get a scheme member to oversee the work in England, (not in Wales).
  3. You can have the LABC inspect the work.
The LABC has three options.
  1. The trust you and you complete the installation certificate and they issue the completion certificate based on your installation certificate.
  2. They inspect and test.
  3. They get some one else to inspect and test, often they use EICR forms.
There is a cost difference between the different methods, you doing the inspection and testing likely cheapest option, but the LABC need convincing you have the skill.

So working out volt drop is part of the skill, so even if you ignore volt drop, you have to convince the LABC you know what you are doing.
 
No need for a ring final, and the appendix says any item which is not portable with a draw of over 2 kW should be on a dedicated supply, so washing machine, dish washer, tumble drier, oven, hob, should have their own dedicated supply...
As you know, it's only 'guidance', but, as you surely also know, it does NOT say quite that.

Of the things you mention, it suggests only that cookers, ovens and hobs with a rated power >2kW should be on dedicated circuits, and that very commonly is the case ('cooker circuits'). It says nothing about washing machines, dishwashers or tumble driers.

As, I've often said, if there is a cooker circuit and just one other 'kitchen circuit', I don't care whether it is a ring or radial, so long as it is a 32A circuit (so 4 mm² in the case of a radial). I would be much less happy with a 20A radial, since any two (and certainly all three) of washing machine, dishwasher and tumble drier (not to mention things like kettles and toasters etc. which could be simultaneously on for brief periods) would 'overload' a 20A circuit.

Kind Regards, John
 
Thanks for the replies chaps. Electrician has been out this afternoon and had a look at what I want to do. He has suggested some changes and we have agreed a way forward. He is quite happy for me to pull all the cabling through and essentially do most of the first fix. He has also given me the size of the cable for the new CU.

All in all he is happy to supervise first fix, complete second fix, test and sign off!!

Really pleased - best of both worlds!!

D
 

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