Advice needed: new shower + Vaillant boiler in loft

[bestgirl]

Hi
I'm new and have looked through previous posts but haven't found an answer to the following.

Building: 2 bed terraced, 2 up/2down, converted, bathroom on 1st floor (2 people living in it).

Bathroom: 134cm wide, window on end outside wall

Heating/Hot water: Gloworm boiler on ground floor and tank in loft. Bathroom on 1st floor - manual mixer shower over bath.

Problem: no hot water pressure in shower and window above end of bath makes it difficult to put a fixed shower head there

I've asked a plumber for a quote and for advice to improve performance and layout, here's what he said:

- new combi condensing Vaillant in loft (take out boiler from kitchen). He said something about 10.5kW if I remember correctly (sorry, too quick for me to retain properly)

- he has to take the gas pipes up to the loft to the new Vaillant by running them from the meter outside along the front wall of the house (is this normal?)

- replace bath with walk in shower at the end of the room, against outside wall where the window is (I'm happy with this as bathroom is very small)

- move toilet near basin, so it is fixed to the side wall, raising shower tray to allow for waste pipe to run under shower tray to the outside wall outlet

- tile floor and walls

- regular mixer shower (not sure what this means).

He said this will give me a decent shower, although not power shower performance.

What do you think of the above? Any problems, advice? How much would you quote for this job?

 

[Rob]

a 10.5 kw shower would refer to an electric shower, so wouldnt need any boiler alterations. Howver you also say regular shower which would mean a thermostatic valve designed for combis.

Yes thats the best way gas pipes can be run.

All the other questions regarding siting of basin toilet etc is you own preference.

Yes the vaillant boiler will give a good shower if installed correctly.

I hope you asked him to redesign your bathroom and htg system as if not thats alot of unnessasery work just for a better shower

 

[bestgirl]

Thanks, I did ask him to redesign the layout, as there is a window on outside wall above the end of the bath where the taps are, making it impossible to install a shower head above the current bath.

The bathroom is so narrow, we can't have shower and toilet side by side, so the best solution seems to be taking out the bath altogether, and installing a shower tray across the width of the bathroom, at the end of the narrow room, where the window is, and having the basin and toilet attached to the side wall. This will require us to move the toilet which is currently next to the bath against the outside wall, to a location on the side wall.

In the future I might have to replace the wooden window frame where the new shower will be, but I will think of that later once we have the new shower installed. The new shower head will be fixed to the side wall, with the window as part of the walk in shower.

The plumber who came to have a look definitely suggested a combi condensed Vaillant, and a regular mixer.

Any probs with running toilet soil pipe under he new shower tray to the outside wall? Is moving a toilet a big job?

 

[bestgirl]

Sorry I've just read the rules and realised I shouldn't ask for ideas of how much a job would cost. Apologies, I should have read that first.

 

[Agile]

The rules also say that you should not post two consecutive postings but instead edit the first.

We can give you an approximate idea of the costs but that depends on you clearly setting out what you are asking about and in the case of replacing boilers a full description of what you have at the moment.

Without knowing what you wanted a new electric shower about £200-£600 depending on electrical power needs as thats the most costly aspect on new instals.

A new boiler installation would be £1500-£5000 as a min/max range. But without all the detail thats not going to be of much help to you.

You have already spoken to a plumber on site so his advice is going to be the most relevant!

Tony

 

[bestgirl]

Sorry, I should have edited. Getting my head round this now.

I currently have:

- Glowworm Economy Plus boiler on ground floor (to be removed)
- Fortic tank and expansion tank in converted loft in separate cupboard mostly insulated (to be removed)
- Bath, basin, toilet in bathroom on 1st floor (to be removed)

I will have

- Vaillant 828 combi condensing boiler with flue going out from under roof (placed in loft in place of old fortic tank)
- new toilet (resited, pipe running along wall and under new shower tray to outside pipe) and new basin same site as current, preferably both wall-mounted
- floor to ceiling tiling and floor tiling in bathroom
- 120cm walk in shower tray
- mixer shower (not sure about thermostatic valve, no electricity in bathroom)
- gas brought up front wall of house from meter to loft for boiler

Does all this make sense to you? Will it give me a good shower pressure?

I hope this is a little more helpful, previous omissions were due to my ignorance in these matters, apologies.

 

[Agile]

A combi needs an adequate mains water flow rate. That needs to be checked before proceeding. About 16 li/min open pipe is about the minimum and will still give some problems.

Boiler/heating/cylinder conversion about £2300-£3600.

Tiling about £30-£50 psm.

Toilet move difficult to guess but perhaps £150-£300.

New shower about £300-£500.

All these costs are only typical ranges and you may have specific special needs or an upmarket house with a much higher standard required. As a rough guess virtually double these figures if you have new Mercs or BMWs!

Tony

 

[bestgirl]

Thanks Tony, that's really useful. Our 2 bed terrace is definitely at the lower end of the market, and in a lower end location as well, so I'd be comparing it to a Citroen 2CV rather than a BMW!

I notice you wrote 'cylinder' - I don't have a hot water cylinder, just the boiler on the ground floor and the fortic tank in the loft. As I understand it, I will only have a Vaillant combi condensing boiler in the loft once the job is done?

I'll make sure I ask the plumber to check the water flow rate, if he ever returns to me with a quote. I asked someone else 4 years ago for a quote, and he came to have a look, but never produced one. This time I was lucky, the guy seemed nice enough, he came round after only 10 phone calls and 2 weeks' waiting.

The main problem here is that all the plumbers know each other and seem to work together, I originally phoned one I found on www.iphe.org, and he told me he would get someone completely different to call me to give me a quote.

So I've no idea now if this plumber is CORGI registered and didn't like to ask as here we're not in a position to negotiate - in my experience, round here there are no plumbers at all if you ask too many questions. It seems that there are only 2 registered plumbers in the area, and they seem to deal the work out to everybody else, keeping themselves completely out of the loop.

Thanks for your help.

 

[Agile]

I think you will find your "Fortic tank" is actually a hot water cylinder!

Why not show your location correctly so we can see and is possible advise on suitable local people.

Have you searched on the CORGI web site?

Tony

 

[bestgirl]

I'm in Gosport, near Portsmouth. I haven't looked at the Corgi site, I did a search and ended up on the Registered plumber site. I will take a look.

I thought tank and cylinder were different things, now I know. Thanks for your help

ps. The problem is that Gosport is separated by water from Portsmouth, so although plumbers appear to be within the range of 5 miles (which is reasonable to travel), in fact they would have to drive for at least 30 minutes to get to Gosport, and with all the work they have in Portsmouth, they just don't come out. I've checked for plumbers on the CORGI site now and they're all in Portsmouth.

 

[Agile]

You need a registered Gas Installer ( RGI ) for the boiler and gas work.

A plumber can do the bathroom type work. They dont need to be registered but the IPHE is the professional body but only about 10% are members. They have a complaints procedure.

You must have the local yellow pages books listing plumbers. Most will come free to discuss your requirements and give an idea of costs.

Tony

 

[bestgirl]

Aha, so I should be looking at 2 separate people to do this job, as there are no Gas installers round here who are also plumbers apparently. I have found Gas installers in Gosport, so I will make enquiries.

Then I will get the plumber who came to have a look to do the bathroom work, if he returns with a reasonable quote, unless he's CORGI registered himself of course, but I very much doubt it and I don't even have his name or details as he was quick in and out. Will find out when and if I get a quote from him.

Many thanks for your valuable advice,

 

[gas4you]

I don't know what the installer has told you but a Vaillant 828 is and old Ecomax 828, no longer available. I can only suggest that he means the Ecotec Pro 28, which is a very basic boiler, in fact the Ecotec Pro are the only 2 Vaillants I would never fit. Ask him for the Ecotec Plus 831 as a minimum.

As Tony says, you need to get your water pressure and flow rates checked to make sure you are going to get full benefit from the combi, but I would think it is going to be an improvement on what you've got already.

You really must get 3 quotes, all from CORGI's as this job needs to be assessed correctly, especially gas pipe size etc.

Don't necessarily go for the cheapest or one that could 'start next week'.

Try and ask friends and neighbours for recommendations as well. Often good installers do not need to advertise as they get most of their work from word of mouth

 

[bestgirl]

I've taken note of the model of boiler too now, thanks. You've both been extremely helpful and now at least I've got some idea of what I should be asking, and expecting.

I have realised I need to go to 3 Corgi gas installers, and will make sure they tell me about gas pipe sizes, and compare what they say (would you be able to tell me what pipe size is needed?). If necessary I'll split the work between a plumber and a gas man. Unfortunately neither myself nor my bf come from this area or socialise in the local pubs, and neighbours keep very much to themselves, so we'll have to go by the book.

I will carry on trying to get quotes from Corgi installers in this area. Your advice has reassured me greatly, thanks for all your time, you've been great. Now for a complete remortgage..

EDITED to add:

Just one more doubt I have. From what I've explained (and I'm not sure this is enough to give an answer, but I'll try askiing) can you tell if I need a thermostatic valve mixer shower to equalise pressure and temperature of the water in the shower? Does this work ok with the Vaillant Ecotec Plus 831?