Advice on FENSA window fitters who are now non-FENSA

[kingandy2nd]

Hi all,

We had some windows fitted at our previous house by a local company and they did a good job for a fair price. Their admin was a bit poor and it took us a year to get a FENSA certificate through.

When we moved, we used the same company again as we’d had no real problems last time round. However, after a while we’d not got our FENSA certificate through so we chased them up about it.

It transpires that this company has stopped paying it’s FENSA subscription, and so can’t provide me with a FENSA certificate. It’s unclear whether they stopped paying the subscription before or after our windows were fitted, but they didn’t tell us at the time of ordering or fitting.

At first when we asked about the FENSA certificate the company said that they would contact the council and pay to get the work certified, but after a few months of chasing we’ve had no visit from the council so I’m going to have to do something about it myself.

I’ve contacted FENSA to find out exactly when the fitters become non-registered (hoping on the off-chance that maybe they were registered at the time of fitting – so might be able to get a certificate myself).

I’m looking to sell my house soon, so I know that I need to get the paperwork in order. But how important is it? I know that technically because this company are not FENSA registered I should have notified the council – so will I get in trouble for this? Am I best to plead ignorance and get onto the council straight away?

At the end of the day it was even the same window fitter that did both houses, so just should it really matter that they’re no longer part of FENSA!?!

Any one had any similar experiences?

 

[kingandy2nd]

OK update:

I have spoken to FENSA and the company I used cancelled it’s FENSA registration 5 months AFTER my installation was done. This would therefore seem to be an administrative problem that they did not register my installation at the time.

However, FENSA told me that:

“…once cancelled a company cannot register any installation as it does not have access to the database. Even if it carried out installations during the period it was FENSA registered, it cannot register them retrospectively. We would advise you to contact the building control department of the local authority to issue you with a certificate retrospectively.”

I went back to FENSA and asked anyone at FENSA could register my installation on my behalf if the company itself couldn’t do it and was told:

“…like I stated earlier, once the company ceases to be FENSA registered it cannot have access to the database and we cannot issue certificates retrospectively as we are not allowed to do so. It is only the Building control department that can do that.”

Which I think it a bit harsh!

I am now concerned that if I do get BCO out to take a look at these windows and something hasn’t been done correctly that the council will force me to take remedial action if they find anything not up to their standard.

A few of the windows are below 800mm from the floor. Can anyone advise me of how to check if glass is toughen? (Other than by trying to though the council bloke through the window?!? ).

 

[Richard C]

A few of the windows are below 800mm from the floor. Can anyone advise me of how to check if glass is toughen? (Other than by trying to though the council bloke through the window?!? ).

Safety glass will have the BS kite mark in a corner somewhere &/or be stamped BS6262; no mark probably means it isn’t safety glass; also windows adjacent to doors must be safety glass. All replacement windows must also have low thermal e glass (K glass or similar) but it’s difficult to tell once the stickers have been removed so the BI may ask for other evidence it complies. I would think it unusual if it’s not, most units these days have it as standard even for conservatories which don’t have to comply. The window installation must also conform but don’t let the BI force you down the road of trickle vents or means of escape; these aren’t required & the only stipulation is the situation must be no worse than it was previously. I assume you’re aware the council will charge for an inspection & issue of a compliance certificate; that’s assuming everything is in order & they are prepared to issue one!

As far as I’m aware, it’s the company that is FENSA registered not the individual fitters; practically all of these are self employed these days. Harsh or not the onus is on the customer to ensure the regulations are followed & you have a certificate of compliance & it's not the fault of your LABC! If the company is still trading I would contact trading standards, if they have been advertising as FENSA registered or they implied they were (not just that you remembered they were) & you have any of their headed paper contract, invoice, receipt etc. saying so then they are making false claims & are probably in breach of contract with you so a small claims court action may be an option for you to re-claim any expenditure to put things right & for the inspection fee.

 

[kingandy2nd]

Thanks for your input Richard - informative and useful (as always!).

The company we went with is still operating, but has changed its name. So I'm not going to get very far with them now.

By opting to use a FENSA company (rather than fit myself) I thought I had done enough to be compliant with the regs.

I've looked at some of the windows in my house below the 800mm level and they're marked BSEN 1279. Not sure if that is safety glass.

Last thing I want is to get the council out and then them insist that we have to change all the glass in the windows because it isn't the right glass.

I think I might just claim I can't find the FENSA cert when I come to sell the place and just pay for indemnity insurance you can get to cover such eventualities.

 

[mattylad]

if as Richard suggests it gives FENSA markings on any paperwork, I.E. the final bill then just keeping that & passing it over would give the impression that it was installed by a FENSA co. ;D

 

[Richard C]

The company we went with is still operating, but has changed its name. So I'm not going to get very far with them now.

What’s important id the name the company was trading under when you placed the order but you must have something to prove it.

By opting to use a FENSA company (rather than fit myself) I thought I had done enough to be compliant with the regs.

You have in theory but like dealing with any trades you have to be aware & wary, I miss trust & treat everyone as a liar until they prove to me otherwise. But this goes back to my first point; if the company was trading as FENSA when you placed the order then you can still make life difficult for them. I would also try leaning on FENSA again; they are the main regulating body & I can’t believe they can just shrug you off with the excuse that the company stopped paying their licence fee so tough! By coincidence, I had a similar registration problem with an OFTEC installer but combined pressure from me & trading standards saw OFTEC being very helpful & I eventually got my certificate of compliance.

I've looked at some of the windows in my house below the 800mm level and they're marked BSEN 1279. Not sure if that is safety glass.

That’s just the insulation standard I believe; if they haven’t fitted safety glass below 800 or adjacent to doors they may have broken the law & not just ignored Building Regulations.

Last thing I want is to get the council out and then them insist that we have to change all the glass in the windows because it isn't the right glass.

In the end it may well come to that. As I said above, I believe not using safety glass in the prescribed areas not only contravenes building regs. it’s against the law so if you make a conscious decision to ignore it, you may also be breaking the law. There was a thread on this some time ago so it may be worth a trawl through the archive.

I think I might just claim I can't find the FENSA cert when I come to sell the place and just pay for indemnity insurance you can get to cover such eventualities.

If that’s what you want to do then fine but I’m not sure indemnity insurance is that easy a cop out option. At the end of the day you have undertaken building work that probably contravenes Building Regulations & it could get complicated; although you have not done it personally, you are ultimately responsible in the eyes of legislation & in some cases the law. I wouldn’t let them off that easily. If I’d paid for something & didn’t get it I would pursue & push it until my nose bled; I don’t get beaten that often!

 

[mattylad]

How would the OP identify the glass to be safety glass?
this link may help.

 

[Richard C]

How would the OP identify the glass to be safety glass?
this link may help.

Safety glass will have the BS kite mark in a corner somewhere &/or be stamped BS6262; no mark probably means it isn’t safety glass;

Useful link though.

 

[rjm2k]

The registration of these installations should really be down to the customer, through a form signed and left by the company. That way, as long as the company is a member at the date of the installation the customer gets what they pay for. I had coldseal go under before registering the "guarantee" which I had paid them for, not only dissappearing with my deposit but also the guarantee money. Same with Corgi, it's not the customers fault if the company dissappears having neglected to register perfectly legitimate installations before hand.

 

[kingandy2nd]

Thanks for all your input guys.

Richard you make very valid points, I will get BCO involved to certify the place. Thank you for being the voice of reason.

Having looked at the windows in daylight, there is no BS6262 marks on the windows below 800mm. However there is an Express Glass mark EN 12150 (which from googling I understand to be toughened glass). I assume toughened glass is the same as safety glass?!?

Picture attached for the benefit of any future forum users trying to ID toughened glass like mine

Untitled

• kingandy2nd
• 1 Nov 2008
• 1

However, I might have two issues:

1. On my bay window one of the sides has been fitted incorrectly. The toughened glass has been fitted in the upper half of the window. I've checked the dimensions on the two bits of glass in this frame and they are exactly the same (according to what's printed on the inside of the glazed unit), so I'm hoping I'll be able to swap them round myself before the council inspect. Is this difficult to do?

2. In the first floor bathroom, the opaque window is below 800mm but does not have a Express Mark on the glass. Immediately in front of this window is the bath. Does the glass have to be safety when there's no immediate access to the window, so no chance of anyone accidently falling into it?

 

[Richard C]

Richard you make very valid points, I will get BCO involved to certify the place. Thank you for being the voice of reason.

Having looked at the windows in daylight, there is no BS6262 marks on the windows below 800mm. However there is an Express Glass mark EN 12150 (which from googling I understand to be toughened glass). I assume toughened glass is the same as safety glass?!?

Seems so; I guess there is more than one way to skin a cat!

However, I might have two issues:

1. On my bay window one of the sides has been fitted incorrectly. The toughened glass has been fitted in the upper half of the window. I've checked the dimensions on the two bits of glass in this frame and they are exactly the same (according to what's printed on the inside of the glazed unit), so I'm hoping I'll be able to swap them round myself before the council inspect. Is this difficult to do?

It’s a very simple, 10 minute job but if you’ve never done it before it’s going to be a bit nerve racking but once you’ve done it a few times, it’s easy. Starting in the centre of the longest sides ease the trim out of the rebate with a blunt scraper; you may have to knock it in with a hammer initially if the trim is tight; the short sides will then be much easier to remove. Refit the shortest sides first using a block of wood & a hammer or preferably a hardwood mallet; it should click into place but don’t hit the glass! Fit the short sides first, longest sides last by inserting the corners first & working your way towards the centre. The thing to remember is that glass is tougher than most people think as long a you don’t actually hit it or create any concentrated stress points (screws for instance). Be sure to note the location & number of packers & put them back in the same place & don’t reverse the glass inside/outside as the thermal coating should be on the inside; that’s assuming it’s been fitted correctly in the first place.

2. In the first floor bathroom, the opaque window is below 800mm but does not have a Express Mark on the glass. Immediately in front of this window is the bath. Does the glass have to be safety when there's no immediate access to the window, so no chance of anyone accidently falling into it?

What about if you stand up in the bath, slip on the soap & into the window; more likely if you have a shower bath but still possible; I’ve actually done it, we don’t have a window but initially I though I’d broken my arm it hurt so much! A relative of mine walked into a non-safety glass patio door in his 3 year old property in Spain where it seems the regs are more lax. He spent 2 days in hospital & is now scarred for life but he could have bled to death if one of his cuts had been in a slightly different place & gone through his main artery. Needless to say he’s now replaced ALL of the glass in his apartment with toughened glass.